The Word vs Lucifer Morningstar

lol good luck with the whole timeline thing... i'd forgotten that bio about the book existing before the word was uttered, but the concept of before would imply time existed as well, wouldn't it...?

anyway, does it explicitly say in overture that time birthed the others? destiny is an odd character for real though. lucifer described him as nothing more than a side effect, based on god's deterministic approach to creation. that seems as good a description as any. lucifer tried ripping the book to blind destiny, but of course that was in the book too and so that didn't work and michael threatened to take the book from him but apparently it does not exist unless destiny has it (though i think that has maybe been contradicted at some point....).

the book isn't perfect though--wasn't it confounded in overture? and god intentionally built in some randomness to his creation near the end of lucifer. i wonder what the book would have said about that (god mentions this randomness i think in the same scene where he grabs creation and holds it in his hand).

Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer and Michael's destinies were preordained, which means they could have come after Destiny... But then Death said that Lucifer and Michael were God's "FIRST big ideas", so I dunno..? I can't imagine Destiny not being considered a "big idea", lol.

As for the birthing order/power correlation: Death did seem to allude to it being a 'thing' where Lucifer and Michael are concerned. She stated that because they were God's first big ideas, they came out "undiluted". I can't imagine that being a reference to anything but power/role. /shrug

I just went back and reread Overture. I had forgotten about a few factoids that change the birthing order a bit.

Per Gaiman's most recent info, it would seem that Time and Night were the first concepts in existence. Their eventual 'union' birthed the Endless, along with the rest of creation:
http://i.imgur.com/hU2feOZ.jpg

Hence why Time refers to all of the Endless(even Destiny) and "his children". He is their Father:
http://i.imgur.com/esna7HW.jpg
*Furthermore, Time states that HE gave Destiny "everything he had" as his birthright. He gave Destiny his Book. In essence, Time fashioned the very concept of Destiny -- that's why Time and Destiny are so closely intertwined as concepts.

And as mentioned above: Night is the Mother of the Endless:
http://i.imgur.com/DO8VGKb.jpg

Just so everyone is aware: Night is the embodiment of void/nothingness -- the darkness that existed before creation was spawned:
http://i.imgur.com/wmDIySP.jpg
*Her and Time's roles were better-defined in the first scan.

That being said, this is the revised birthing order of the first few conceptual beings:
1.) Night: she existed before the beginning.
2.) Time: he existed at the beginning, and created Destiny.
3.) Destiny: as mentioned above, he was created by Time directly.
-The rest: they were created by the union of Time and Night, and their stories are all housed within Destiny's Book.

*I believe Lucifer and Michael could fit into the "#1.5" slot, as they existed before the beginning as well... That's kind of open to interpretation, though. /shrug

On a similar, but somewhat unrelated note: Overture was a total mindf*ck. 😖

It also introduced other conceptual beings, like "Dusk"(servant of Night):
http://i.imgur.com/TzHQGCu.jpg

And "Glory":
http://i.imgur.com/ZTtlFp8.jpg
*I am not at all sure what this abstract version of Colonel Sanders' role/purpose is.

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the idea that time is older than destiny sort of fits. in that bio scan you showed it just says the word was traced by hand in the book--nothing to say it was destiny himself who wrote the word. likely it was god THEN destiny came into play to safeguard the book. god did say multiple times that he basically let things come into their own in their own way and time, but that there was always a plan. seems contradictory, but hey, who's to argue with an omnipotent....

I'd vote Lucifer, here.

Originally posted by leonidas
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the idea that time is older than destiny sort of fits. in that bio scan you showed it just says the word was traced by hand in the book--nothing to say it was destiny himself who wrote the word. likely it was god THEN destiny came into play to safeguard the book. god did say multiple times that he basically let things come into their own in their own way and time, but that there was always a plan. seems contradictory, but hey, who's to argue with an omnipotent....

After all, Destiny's Book contains absolutely every event that will ever occur from the start of creation until its end. It is, in essence, a novelization of time itself. So in that respect, Time literally did give Destiny all he had to give: himself.

F*ck me. Gaiman's mind-phuckery went overboard in Overture... 😖

Glory is the first of the Faerie I believe, you see him explaining what the realm of Faerie will be in the Dream chapter of Endless Nights.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
Glory is the first of the Faerie I believe, you see him explaining what the realm of Faerie will be in the Dream chapter of Endless Nights.

Anywho, I'm glad you mentioned Endless Nights, because it reminded me of this scene, wherein Death(as well as the rest of the Endless) are conceptually described:

Hard to know what would actually happen. I think the best guess to see what would happen is when Destiny and Lucifer interacted with each other. Some believe The Word and Destiny to be the same being, or at the very least two sides of the same coin, like how Morpheus is known as Lord L'Zoril to J'onn J'onzz, or like how Michael is referred to as a Hindu deity in the Spectre's comic.

I found someone did ask DC if they was the same being, and they did answer it to a point. Here's the scan if anyone wishes to see. Its also known that when God creates something he speaks them into existence.
http://i.imgur.com/ZAxEMUn.jpg

Lucifer stomps . The word is around spectres level .

The Swamp Thing killed the Word in Swamp Thing volume 2, issue 170.

No, Tefe killed The Word. She did so by approximating a sound which was the exact opposite of The Voice of God(along with a form that could sustain it.) This essentially cancelled-out The Word.

It's been a long time since I read the comic. All I remember is that the Word died.

Either way. Shouldn't Lucifer know that and be able to produce the exact same sound?

It's possible, I guess, though I'd still be inclined to go the stalemate route. /shrug

Lucifer and michael are far above anyone in the DC creation besides The overvoid and The Presence . If archangels are above Night and Time they would easily beat down any beings short of god . I can even see Dream of Endless beating word .

In dream of thousand cats storyline , In the beginning of the universe cats were always bigger then the humans , But a collective dreams of thousand people altered the reality from the beginning of time in such a way that humans were always larger then the cats in all possibilities .

All the embodiments such as stars , galaxies , universes and spatial dimensions are below the power of endless who are below the power of angels .

Lucifer