On Force Grip & Ragdolling

Something I think about often is whether the common assumption that if a Force user is able to Force grip or ragdoll another they are notably more powerful, is in fact true. For how much of display of superiority is it really?

It would certainly appear to be the case for example Dooku ragdolling Ventress & Vos, Sidious ragdolling Maul, Traya Force gripping Sion or Arcann ragdolling the Outlander. But there are other cases were it is more dubious, for example Kanan Force gripping the Inquisitor after just being dominated himself, Vader TK'ing Galen Marek, Kyp Durron getting Force pinned by Kenth Hamner, Ventress dominating Anakin & Kenobi, and that infamous but ultimately scrapped scene (that nonetheless made it all the way to animatics) in which Maul Force grips Palpatine. Even Dooku ragdolling Kenobi has a whiff of suspicion about it considering the Count was baffled by his speed just prior.

I also can't think of a single instance in which an attempt at Force gripping has failed, only instances in which it's being broken free from. So is it even possible to completely deny such an attempt? And if so how much of a gap between attacker and attacked must there be?

It's usually the exploitation of a lapse in Force defenses, but it can also just be shredding through Force defenses.

It's not inherently unstoppable, though, otherwise Dark Siders would win every contest they get into. As long as X is comparable to Y in power and doesn't let down his or her guard, then Y won't be ragdolling X for any reason short of PIS.

Well I gather its something that can be broken free from, and also something taxing for the user to maintain, so in that respect it doesn't appear unstoppable.

Ventress appears to outright shred Kenobi and Anakin's defences though, and even with a rage amp it seems infeasible she'd become more powerful than the both of them.

It's possible that the Jedi let down their guard since they believed they won. I mean, it's TCW. It's not beyond them to write something like that.

Eh that seems unlikely, they seemed pretty combat ready. Savage also does the same to Ventress and Dooku while they are fighting.

There's a few instances where people have the clear upper hand and think they've won, and then they let down their guard. It's bad writing.

They're clearly distracted and not expecting him to do that, though. Force defenses aren't omnidirectional - they're directionally relative. In other words, you can only defend against someone whose attack you're expecting. You can't block an unexpected Force attack from behind.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's a few instances where people have the clear upper hand and think they've won, and then they let down their guard. It's bad writing.

They're clearly distracted and not expecting him to do that, though. Force defenses aren't omnidirectional - they're directionally relative. In other words, you can only defend against someone whose attack you're expecting. You can't block an unexpected Force attack from behind.

Nah, I've reconsidered my stance many times, including following recent discussions. However, it's pretty clear that unless you're vastly, vastly, vastly more powerful, your passive defenses won't be saving you from anything. Savage Choking Ventress + Dooku when they were distracted and Kenth hurling + pinning Kyp Durron whilst he was distracted support my point.

I've thought about this before. Mm this might make people think twice before saying "He can beat her because he ragdolled this bloke" 👆

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nah, I've reconsidered my stance many times, including following recent discussions. However, it's pretty clear that unless you're vastly, vastly, vastly more powerful, your passive defenses won't be saving you from anything. Savage Choking Ventress + Dooku when they were distracted and Kenth hurling + pinning Kyp Durron whilst he was distracted support my point.

I think of it like how mind defenses work in the Eragon series; you have a mental barrier where others are constantly looking for flaws they can exploit—other times they just overwhelm you with raw power.

When they're just pushed is one thing, when they are actively pinned is when superiority comes into play.

Like, all Vader really did in the battle against the clonewas ragdoll him out a window, but he landed on his feet and was totally fine, though people try to use it as a legitimate feat.