I don't see Caedus. Mara Jade beat him; he only killed her through garbage writing via a poison needle that she somehow didn't sense coming despite not trusting him, being aware, and being in a fight for her life. Regardless, she was the better combatant between the two the entire fight. Luke was was never in danger against him when they dueled, and even Ben managed to hold him at bay for a time. While he was injured when Jaina killed him, so was she, and she had been training specifically to be capable of killing him and by all impressions from the final fight and their battle on the asteroid interior prior to that he was not by any means close to the greatest.
Am I missing something, or are people considering him a real contender for this?
She chose an area that restricted his movement and even set up traps. So it wasn't exactly a fight without circumstances, she even admitted she was his inferior in the force. He was also stomped by Luke but that's because Luke is massively more skilled, so how the **** is it a bad thing that he lost to the greatest Jedi in the EU?
Originally posted by carthage
She chose an area that restricted his movement and even set up traps. So it wasn't exactly a fight without circumstances, she even admitted she was his inferior in the force. He was also stomped by Luke but that's because Luke is massively more skilled, so how the **** is it a bad thing that he lost to the greatest Jedi in the EU?
Originally posted by Ascendancy
The thread asks who the greatest duelist of the EU is. Jacen/Caedus was beaten by Mara Jade, his sister, and Luke. My question was why people are even considering him when he was beaten in direct combat by better duelists. Let's even for the sake of it throw out Mara Jade and Jaina; that still leaves Luke his better, so again, I'm unclear as to why anyone would even try and argue Caedus as the best in the EU.
He never lost he killed her with a dart in a situation that was beneficial to her and restricted his movments, Jaina was amped by Luke and fled from the battle, and only win on Uroro after he was mortally wounded and missing an arm, and I'm glad you gathered how losing to Luke isn't a Bad feat. Either you aren't taking into context the fact that all of his opponents had benefits to him, or are neglecting that both Mara and Jaina admitted inferiority in the force (which is the basis for Lightsaber skill) . So please consider the context of the duels before making uneducated statements
Originally posted by carthage
He never lost he killed her with a dart in a situation that was beneficial to her and restricted his movments, Jaina was amped by Luke and fled from the battle, and only win on Uroro after he was mortally wounded and missing an arm, and I'm glad you gathered how losing to Luke isn't a Bad feat. Either you aren't taking into context the fact that all of his opponents had benefits to him, or are neglecting that both Mara and Jaina admitted inferiority in the force (which is the basis for Lightsaber skill) . So please consider the context of the duels before making uneducated statements
He wouldn't have employed the dart if he could have won outright. She was a superior duelist to him. Again, you admitted yourself above that Luke was his better, so again I ask, why is he even in the conversation? That is my very simple question. Excluding Jaina and Mara Jade, we know that if nothing else Caedus was never on Luke's level. I literally never said that having lost to Luke in itself make him a sub par duelist, I simply stated that it shows that he has no place in a discussion about the best EU duelists.
Superiority in the Force does not mean that someone is a superior duelist. If that were the case Vitiate would have been nigh unstoppable, yet he wasn't, and it has been argued plenty that Sidious and plenty of others were his superior in raw saber combat. When it comes to pure saber prowess there are many who demonstrate greater feats than Vitiate, so are you really going to argue that affinity with the Force is the deciding factor in terms of someone's level of saber skill now? You want to say that Vitiate would have beaten Windu, Yoda, or Luke simply because of his arcane ability?
You can come with vitriol all you want, you can be upset all you like, you can chose to be obstinate and make personal remarks rather than addressing what I brought up all you like, but again, my simple question is why is Caedus even being brought up when multiple EU duelists have shown better feats? I'm not sure why you're going around and around on other points when you could have answered that and been done.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
She was a superior duelist to him.
It's actually noted in the text that Caedus was a far more skilled swordsman than Mara; she had the advantage because he was badly wounded and because she managed to turn the fight into a brawl rather than a duel.
You can come with vitriol all you want, you can be upset all you like, you can chose to be obstinate and make personal remarks rather than addressing what I brought up all you like, but again, my simple question is why is Caedus even being brought up when multiple EU duelists have shown better feats?
Like what, in particular?
He wouldn't have employed the dart if he could have won outright. She was a superior duelist to him. Again, you admitted yourself above that Luke was his better, so again I ask, why is he even in the conversation? That is my very simple question. Excluding Jaina and Mara Jade, we know that if nothing else Caedus was never on Luke's level. I literally never said that having lost to Luke in itself make him a sub par duelist, I simply stated that it shows that he has no place in a discussion about the best EU duelists.
And if she was more skilled she would've been able to beat him outright anywhere instead of meticulously searching for an area that restricted his movements and using her assassins weapons as opposed to an actual duel:
She grabbed her bag and everything from the cockpit that could be used as a weapon, then found some cover while she consulted with her datapad for charts and surveys of Kavan. It was honeycombed with ruined monuments and tunnels. Fine. If I get him in a confined space, he cant use all of his force skills, but I can make the best of what I got
-Sacrifice
So she knowingly had prep, and chose an area that benefited her as opposed to fighting him on neutral ground due to him being more powerful.
The narrator also states she's his inferior
She was a superb assassin but her force skills were crude to his
In another part she hides while he's wandering the tunnels, and kicks him severing tendons in his knees and collapses tunnels on him after he's trapped. So again if she's more skilled why is she resorting to her assassin abilities instead of fighting him on neutral ground and not in a confined space?
Superiority in the Force does not mean that someone is a superior duelist. If that were the case Vitiate would have been nigh unstoppable, yet he wasn't, and it has been argued plenty that Sidious and plenty of others were his superior in raw saber combat. When it comes to pure saber prowess there are many who demonstrate greater feats than Vitiate, so are you really going to argue that affinity with the Force is the deciding factor in terms of someone's level of saber skill now? You want to say that Vitiate would have beaten Windu, Yoda, or Luke simply because of his arcane ability?
A strong force connection enables a force user to master forms more rapidly, bridge the gap in knowledge between a mentor and his student, and excel in learning. Its why ROTJ Luke defeated Vader with minimal training, POD Bane could fight evenly with Kas'im with minimal training, or why Return Malgus could best Kao after the latter was more technically skilled. So yes a force connection is integral in lightsaber combat. Jacen having more inherent potential than Mara, and his vastly superior connection was the whole reason she had to set up traps and remove the area of movement because he's better. Vitiate's a bad example he was a Sorcerer supreme who studied the darkside for thousands of years, and Sidious at the end of ROTJ completely disregarded the lightsaber and called it a "Jedi weapon" because he had attained total mastery of the force. If Vitiate wanted too he likely could've learned and exceeded in Swordsmanship, but what the hell is the point of that when you've attained total mastery of the darkside like either Sidious or Vitiate?
Again, you said above Luke>Jacen, so my question still stands, why is he even being mentioned here in contention for best duelist? I asked that from the start. You chose to reply in regards to the Mara Jade fight, which is fine, whatever, it's been discussed now.
My question still stands: why is Jacen/Caedus even being mentioned when Luke is his clear superior? There's no need to even argue that others are better as well when we have direct showings of Luke being his better, therefore negating any chance of him being the best duelist in the EU.
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Again, you said above Luke>Jacen, so my question still stands, why is he even being mentioned here in contention for best duelist? I asked that from the start. You chose to reply in regards to the Mara Jade fight, which is fine, whatever, it's been discussed now.My question still stands: why is Jacen/Caedus even being mentioned when Luke is his clear superior? There's no need to even argue that others are better as well when we have direct showings of Luke being his better, therefore negating any chance of him being the best duelist in the EU.
Because Luke is also in the movies. Did you even read the OP? 😬
Originally posted by Ascendancy
Again, you said above Luke>Jacen, so my question still stands, why is he even being mentioned here in contention for best duelist? I asked that from the start. You chose to reply in regards to the Mara Jade fight, which is fine, whatever, it's been discussed now.My question still stands: why is Jacen/Caedus even being mentioned when Luke is his clear superior? There's no need to even argue that others are better as well when we have direct showings of Luke being his better, therefore negating any chance of him being the best duelist in the EU.
Originally posted by Balta Skywalker
Any character seen in the movies does not count.
Alright, my bad on that. I still don't see Caedus as in the discussion. Kun has demonstrated better feats. Raskta Lsu, limited though her presence is, did not lose in a single incident of single combat during the entire Sith conflict and her showing against an amped, orbalisk wearing Bane was more than noteworthy. In the same position Caedus does not stand as long, especially not when actually handicapped at times by the others helping him.
I don't see how Hord gets into the discussion either. There's no question that he was the greatest duelist up to his time and well beyond, but the text has Kas'im as his better after, and context shows Bane as Kas'im's equal in almost all ways when they fight, his better in some, and without question his better in every way by the time of his death. Even excepting that, there's really so little information about Hord that it's rather difficult to speak to exactly what he's capable of, so arguing for him has a rather tenuous base to stand on.