Originally posted by |King Joker|Luke was able to match Vader in strength and skill in ROTJ, and even if we consider Vader post-prime, Cade still lacks feats that compare. In Force Luke's ability to deflect attacks from Vader and Sidious suggest he'd be able to handle Cade's offense just fine, however he doesn't have much offensive ability himself while Cade has a wider range of powers including DT, so Cade probably wins.
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In an all-out the only way I see Cade winning is through DT however there's no guarantee he'll be able to use it in combat, and even if he does Luke may be able to resist. Whereas Cade can't beat him in sabers, so altogether Luke takes the majority.
Luke taking Force is absolutely laughable. Luke had a hard time supporting the weight of a simple AT-ST; Cade was hurling the better part of a starship meters across a landscape to send Talon flying. This is after years of not using his power and dampening with death sticks. His barrier showings are inferior, he has no answer for DT, lightning, etc.
Luke admitted Vader could have raped him in the Force as of RotJ, and via feats that certainly seems to be the case - Krayt couldn't do the same to Cade despite trying, and Krayt is > Vader in the Force, IMO.
Hell, I'm not even sure Luke takes sabers anymore. Luke can combat Vader because he was attuned to him, after battled him like, 2 times previous to the final showdown above Endor. If he was legit Vader level as a duelist; peeps like Lumiya, and Flint wouldn't be hanging/beating him.
If this is a response to me I never said Luke takes Force, however he has deflected telekinetic attacks from Vader in ESB and was initially successful in deflecting the lightning of Darth Sidious, and Cade compares to neither of them. Nor is Luke's opinion really a basis for anything, its notoriously unreliable and he was in a moment of crisis to boot.
EDIT: Luke only being able to combat Vader because he was "attuned" to him seems like fanon, lol. On the other hand he defeated Lumiya handily when he knew how to combat her weapon and wasn't willing to fight Flint.
If this is a response[...snip]
No, it wasn't it was more for the general pro-Luke audience.
to me I never said Luke takes Force, however he has deflected telekinetic attacks from Vader in ESB
When was this? Vader obviously wasn't going all-out against Luke in ESB either way, lmao. So yeah, please do qualify how powerful a telekinetic blast from a holding back Vader is - I'll wait.
and was initially successful in deflecting the lightning of Darth Sidious
For a minuscule period of time, against obvious low intensity lightning --- meant to torture --- not kill. Impressive, but not impressive you're trying to desperately to pass off, my nig.
Nor is Luke's opinion really a basis for anything, its notoriously unreliable and he was in a moment of crisis to boot.
On the contrary, I'd suspect Luke's opinion on his abilities means a lot. His showings and feats in that era doesn't come close to comparing to Vader's own. Plus, IIRC, in the entire book Luke mused how Vader would have defeated him, if is primary goal was to in fact, defeat him, at all cost. Several sources have indicated Vader was "conflicted" and his resolve "wavered" during his duel in RotJ. Lucas himself has stated Luke wasn't up there with Vader at that point and time.
Originally posted by Deronn_soloIt's in the ESB novel, he deflects some of his telekinetic projectiles. And about more powerful than Cade, yeah.
When was this? Vader obviously wasn't going all-out against Luke in ESB either way, lmao. So yeah, please do qualify how powerful a telekinetic blast from a holding back is - I'll wait.
For a minuscule period of time, against obvious low intensity lightning --- meant to torture --- not kill. Impressive, but not impressive you're trying to desperately to pass off, my nig.Because Sidious quickly ramps it up, and his intentions were to kill, it's in the dialogue. But who really cares? Palpy's low end lightning is still well above what Cade can muster.
On the contrary, I'd suspect Luke's opinion on his abilities means a lot. His showings and feats in that era doesn't come close to comparing to Vader's own. Plus, IIRC, in the entire book Luke mused how Vader would have defeated him, if is primary goal was to in fact, defeat him, at all cost. Several sources have indicated Vader was "conflicted" and his resolve "wavered" during his duel in RotJ. Lucas himself has stated Luke wasn't up their with Vader at that point and time.Except he's musing on Vader's capabilities, not his own, or rather he's speculating. Certainly it doesn't align with Vader's lethal intent as its described in the RotJ novel. Not that Luke's assessment of his own abilities isn't shitty either.
As for the rest, none of that proves Vader would have raped lol. I agree that in a contest of the Force Vader would be the clear victor, but that doesn't mean his victory would have been at all easy.
It's in the ESB novel, he deflects some of his telekinetic projectiles. And about more powerful than Cade, yeah.
Deflecting some projectile Vader threw, isn't anywhere near the same deflecting direct telekinetic attacks, lmao. Jax Pavan has done that, and Vader has ragdolled him to the point he was pinned to a wall a la Sidious v Maul and Savage. Nah - it ain't, and you haven't proved it in the slightest.
Because Sidious quickly ramps it up
and his intentions were to kill, it's in the dialogue
But who really cares? Palpy's low end lightning is still well above what Cade can muster.
Based on?
Except he's musing on Vader's capabilities, not his own, or rather he's speculating.
Nah, he directly compared both his and Vader's in the book, dude. There is little speculation; he has felt his fathers power and he knows his own - if he says Vader > his own, then I;ll believe just that. You can disagree if you want, I don't care honestly. It totally matches what with the creator [aka word of God] said about Luke not being on Vader level, common sense, and his actual feats/showings. A half dead Vader is sporting better showing than Luke's RotJ best, real talk.
Certainly it doesn't align with Vader's lethal intent as its described in the RotJ novel
Yeah, short lived intent out of frustration in that brief period where Luke gained the upper-hand by kicking Vader down the steps? Makes absolute sense that a dark sider would succumb to such thoughts, momentarily. Sources have told us Vader's intent as a whole wasn't lethal, with Luke himself commenting as much.
Not that Luke's assessment of his own abilities isn't shitty either.
I agree that in a contest of the Force Vader would be the clear victor, but that doesn't mean his victory would have been at all easy.
I think Vader would take him in short order, yes.
Originally posted by Deronn_soloPavan actually deflected telekinetic blasts from Vader not projectiles, though Vader was lashing out wildly.
Deflecting some projectile Vader threw, isn't anywhere near the same deflecting direct telekinetic attacks, lmao. Jax Pavan has done that, and Vader has ragdolled him to the point he was pinned to a wall a la Sidious v Maul and Savage.
On the other hand Luke's ability to deflect projectiles far from his prime, a far more decisive tactic in Force-based combat between opponents of similar strength, should put him in good stead handling Cade.
Nah - it ain't, and you haven't proved it in the slightest.I'd thought it be obvious, Vader was fighting to win and his telekinetic abilities exceed Cade's considerable. Regardless of the fact that this was at the very beginning of Luke's Jedi training.
So, he deflected low intensity lightning from Sidious, so what? Scrubs has tanked Sids lightning when the intensity is low:I shouldn't have to tell you 1. not dying =/= tanking 2. not dying is not remotely the same as deflecting Force lightning with tutanimis, which its been stated only the most powerful of Jedi masters could accomplish.
A poor example, all in all.
Yesh, after making him suffer for a prolonged period of time, obviously.Right, but the point is he wasn't particularly interested in keeping him alive, so had little reason to go particularly soft on him. His lightning was intended to kill, just not instantly, if he was even capable of that.
Based on?Based on Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord in history? Capable of casually incinerating Dark Side prophets and incapacitating Galen Marek? What is Cade in comparison?
Nah, he directly compared both his and Vader's in the book, dude. There is little speculation; he has felt his fathers power and he knows his own - if he says Vader > his own, then I;ll believe just that. You can disagree if you want, I don't care honestly. It totally matches what with the creator [aka word of God] said about Luke not being on Vader level, common sense, and his actual feats/showings. A half dead Vader is sporting better showing than Luke's RotJ best, real talk.None of that means he has the absolute measure of Vader's capabilities, and certainly not that Vader would destroy him in the Force. But sure we are free to disagree on this. As long as you understand that opinions =/= facts.
Yeah, short lived intent out of frustration in that brief period where Luke gained the upper-hand by kicking Vader down the steps? Makes absolute sense that a dark sider would succumb to such thoughts, momentarily. Sources have told us Vader's intent as a whole wasn't lethal, with Luke himself commenting as much.Yet Vader's anger became "layered" as the fight progressed, with him describing his intent to kill Luke if he would not fight, and to demonstrate to him it was "no longer just a game."
In his mind at least he was fighting with lethal intent. Which casts doubt on Luke's claim that he could have destroyed him any time he liked, being subconsciously unbalanced shouldn't have prevented Vader at least giving him a thorough beating like he did on Bespin.
I think Vader would take him in short order, yes.If only there were evidence to support that.