Jason Todd vs. Batwoman

Originally posted by Zack M
And he didn't own Midnighter.

lol whatever you wish to call an one arm strike with a baby in other hand that sends Midnighter quickly to the ground

Dick also performed well in the actual fight especially considering that Midnighter ambushed him from the back in the beginning, and prepped for the encounter. Grayson 6

Yeah, that's what I was referring to. But Jason did have the edge, even if it was off panel. Still impressive, since it was Batman.

But we don't know if its impressive b/c we don't know if Batman just tripped on his cape and fell and Jason finding him like that pull out a gun. But seriously we don't know if Bruce was holding back trying to reach Jason like he has done before or what the circumstances were.

What we do know is that Bruce and Dick had a fight so intense that a motorcycle was 1-shotted, and Bruce gave up before Dick. So Dick's New 52 fight with Bruce is much more impressive than Jason's off panel advantage.

Originally posted by Supermutant
lol whatever you wish to call an one arm strike with a baby in other hand that sends Midnighter quickly to the ground

Dick also performed well in the actual fight especially considering that Midnighter ambushed him from the back in the beginning, and prepped for the encounter. Grayson 6

But we don't know if its impressive b/c we don't know if Batman just tripped on his cape and fell and Jason finding him like that pull out a gun. But seriously we don't know if Bruce was holding back trying to reach Jason like he has done before or what the circumstances were.

What we do know is that Bruce and Dick had a fight so intense that a motorcycle was 1-shotted, and Bruce gave up before Dick. So Dick's New 52 fight with Bruce is much more impressive than Jason's off panel advantage.

Why would you post that scan? Midnighter didn't want to kill Grayson and he NEVER defeated him in HTH. Never.

Grayson also had Spyral tech enhancements that messed with Midnighter's senses. He would have went down, if it weren't for that, and Grayson admitted as much.

Tripped on his cape? LMAO. Come on, SM.

BTW, Grayson owning Grifter isn't all that impressive, considering that he has no HTH skills to speak of and he didn't use the fullest of his TP/TK abilities.

This has been really informative; Love the scans.

Originally posted by Zack M
Dick also got owned cassandra cain, Jason didn't.

It sure looks like Jason got owned by her until his upgraded gear gave him a brief edge. Also she wasn't even trying to fight him but protect him.

Now compare that to Dick's short scuffle with her in which he doesn't have his normal Nightwing gear.

So Jason with upgraded armor did marginally better against a holding back Cassandra Cain than Dick w/out Nightwing armor and gear. To suggest this combined with an off panel advantage over Batman puts the Red Hood above Nightwing is inaccurate.

Jason did do better. True, he had armor, but cass didn't pin him down so easily as she did Grayson.

Originally posted by Zack M
When did Night wing get the upper hand against bronze tiger? Jason fought the weretiger. Who had enhanced durability and stats.

Grayson #18, Dick handily controlled the fight against Bronze Tiger. No it wasn't weretiger but it was still New 52 BT and still impressive. When has BT not been able to even get one strike in a fight? His only offense was one hold that Dick quickly countered and flipped him.

Originally posted by Zack M
BTW, slipping away from supergirl>>> slipping away from Batman.

I wasn't even going for Dick really impressive stealth feats. I was just showing how using stealth to move unnoticed isn't something that only Jason can do. Dick being doing that even from a teenager, most of the former bat sidekicks have impressive feats of stealth. Again I failed to see how that put Jason above Dick, when pre-52 Dick slipped away from Superman.

BTW, slipping away from Superman >>> slipping away from Supergirl.

Jason, Tim, and Babs were unable to detect Dick at their meeting in the batcave.

That wasn't weretiger Bronze. Jason got brushed aside by that version.

And isn't that Pre-Flashpoint Grayson? Are those feats still usable?

I still think Red hood>Grayson, at least in the DCnU.

Pretty sure Pre 52 fears no longer apply...

Originally posted by Zack M
Why would you post that scan? Midnighter didn't want to kill Grayson and he NEVER defeated him in HTH. Never.

Grayson also had Spyral tech enhancements that messed with Midnighter's senses. He would have went down, if it weren't for that, and Grayson admitted as much.

Tripped on his cape? LMAO. Come on, SM.

I never said Grayson defeated him. I said Grayson owned him knocking him to the ground w/baby in other hand, and performed well against Mids in the actual fight. I also never said that Mid was trying to kill Grayson.

So its alright for Red Hood to use alien tech and All Caste gear, but Dick using Spyral tech too his advantage is a negative?

By the way when Bruce got serious on Jason (in their only full on panel fight) he put him down long enough for a forum victory. Then he clearly allowed Jason three free shots and Jason still couldn't put him down.

So I think NW is still a lil above Jason.

Originally posted by Zack M
And isn't that Pre-Flashpoint Grayson? Are those feats still usable?

Only Dick sneaking away from Superman is Pre-Flashpoint.

Who knows, but I'm not going to forget/erase what Dick has done to make Jason look better.

Plus Battle for the Cowl is canon for the whole Bat Family considering Green Lantern and Bat Family's timeline was barely affected by the New-52 reboot, in fact, during Nightwing #1, Grayson claims he spent 1 year filling the spot for Bruce as Batman when he was away, and the Battle for the Cowl is the story which goes prior to Dick becoming Batman, so it needed to happen for Dick to become Batman, meaning it should be canon or unaffected...

This link about DC's canon history is interesting as well.

http://comicbook.com/2015/05/01/dc-comics-just-made-their-entire-history-officially-canon

Originally posted by riv6672
Pretty sure Pre 52 fears no longer apply...

Originally posted by Supermutant
I never said Grayson defeated him. I said Grayson owned him knocking him to the ground w/baby in other hand, and performed well against Mids in the actual fight. I also never said that Mid was trying to kill Grayson.

So its alright for Red Hood to use alien tech and All Caste gear, but Dick using Spyral tech too his advantage is a negative?

By the way when Bruce got serious on Jason (in their only full on panel fight) he put him down long enough for a forum victory. Then he [b] clearly allowed Jason three free shots and Jason still couldn't put him down.

So I think NW is still a lil above Jason. [/B]

That's not a good feat to post, especially since Midnighter didn't want to kill him. They've actually became good friends. 🙂

My point still stands, though. Midnighter IS above the likes of Grayson and even Batman. His feats in the DCnU have been highly impressive.

Originally posted by Supermutant
Only Dick sneaking away from Superman is Pre-Flashpoint.

Who knows, but I'm not going to forget/erase what Dick has done to make Jason look better.

Plus Battle for the Cowl is canon for the whole Bat Family considering Green Lantern and Bat Family's timeline was barely affected by the New-52 reboot, in fact, during Nightwing #1, Grayson claims he spent 1 year filling the spot for Bruce as Batman when he was away, and the Battle for the Cowl is the story which goes prior to Dick becoming Batman, so it needed to happen for Dick to become Batman, meaning it should be canon or unaffected...

This link about DC's canon history is interesting as well.

http://comicbook.com/2015/05/01/dc-comics-just-made-their-entire-history-officially-canon

The whole Batfamily continuity has been murky. The Batman we see isn't Pre-Flashpoint Batman, it's another, alternate Batman.

Originally posted by marwash22
why not? Everything is canon again after Convergence.

Pre-Flashpoint Superman is back. DCnU Batman is acting like he's never heard of him.

Originally posted by Zack M
That's not a good feat to post, especially since Midnighter didn't want to kill him. They've actually became good friends. 🙂

It's an excellent feat to post b/c Dick impressed Midnighter with his skills. They weren't good friends initially.

My point still stands, though. Midnighter IS above the likes of Grayson and even Batman. His feats in the DCnU have been highly impressive.

That point has never been in contention by me. Jason > Dick is very much in contention.

Originally posted by Zack M
Pre-Flashpoint Superman is back. DCnU Batman is acting like he's never heard of him.

Originally posted by Supermutant
It's an excellent feat to post b/c Dick impressed Midnighter with his skills. They weren't good friends initially.

[B]

That point has never been in contention by me. Jason > Dick is very much in contention.

He was surprised that he got sucker shot, not because of his skill. We've seen what happens when Grayson fights Midnighter and it's not pretty. And this is with Spyral tech.

I still see it as Jason>Grayson, but I guess we'll agree to disagree.

Originally posted by marwash22
Dr. Manhattan erased 10 years of history.

I don't think it was confirmed to be Manhattan, has it?

Jason sucks.