My problem with all of this is simple. I've been writing stories for about 8 years. Damn, I even wrote my own book. I understand that perfectly well.
Fighting is random. Anybody who has experience or understanding of what combat truly is - knows combat is not just "this guy is 5% better in everything - he wins". You can be better by greater amount in every field possible and still lose a fight. It's more about luck. It's about one tiny, minor mistake, some bad position, 1 bad movement among 100 others. Being better allows you to have more chances, it means your chances of that one tiny mistake are lower, but both of you are gonna have huge chances of losing, and your advantage makes this shit lower, but fighting is random, it's a mess. It depends on who got the first strike and a better position for a good hit in the face at the beginning.
And I get that. I know how it works, and I've created great amount of stories myself, with quite many fights.
I am aware that fight between Kenobi and Fisto, despite clear superiority of the first, can end with Fisto winning just because of that randomness and how combat truly works. Of course there are huge disparities, mind you - I would quite honestly consider Plagueis vs. Kenobi a fight where Kenobi can't realistically win 1 on 1.
The final question is this - who the damn cares? I know you can very well imagine a fight where somebody truly inferior like Jacen can actually defeat Palpatine without huge circumstances, because [look at all the above]. Since I know that, what use do I have from shit like this? You're not creating a convincing story. You're not giving us a scenario where Kenobi wins against Plagueis. You're not giving me a neat fiction writing, a good scenario. You're just telling me the shit I've just described above.
Give me a good story where Kenobi gives Plagueis a good fight, a detailed one unlike "well it's totes possible". Or give me a good holistic comparison and judgement on their abilities, skills and tactics. Don't give me a half-assed shit supporting the non-detailed scenario. Give me one or another.
Fights debated on here on KMC and sites like that aren't the actual fights; it's comparing who is better. It's about giving a detailed rundown on what someone is truly capable of, and how better or worse he is. We know fights are random and can end either way until the gap between fighters is 300% (at least I know, lol).
Originally posted by chilled monkeyNo it's just nonsense, even if we were to assume that despite his prodigious sensory abilities that he'd failed to gain the full measure of Kenobi's abilities from the off, it's ridiculous to suggest that under those circumstances he'd assault an opponent of unknown ability so sloppily and overconfidently as to leave himself exposed.
Seriously, people need to learn to appreciate the subtleties that make these videos so much fun to watch, and the analyses that are incredibly helpful when considering how to construct fight scenes for your fan-fictions.Also I notice no-one gives Jen or Even credit for giving a far more positive review of Plagueis's prowess as a fighter.
Cue the hate and mockery. If it's not too difficult please try to actually pay attention to my points while you're at it.
There is nothing subtle or nuanced about the outcome of this fight, Plagueis attacks and ramps up his assault until Kenobi is dead.
More to the point "imagination" has no place in a logical debate, try sticking to the facts, and an outcome like this would make for shitty fan fiction.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I paid attention to your points.
And yet you are unable to actually answer any of them.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Stop making excuses for these guys please.
Stop putting down these guys please. I've explained why their videos are awesome.
Originally posted by Nephthys
You should just admit that you are one of these guys, "Chilled".
I cannot do that as that would be a lie and I am NOT a liar.
And once again you are unable to actually answer any of my points.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Plaugueis has this little thing called the Force. You might have heard of it, idk. He can sense how strong Kenobi is and then vaporise him with impunity.
And yet he didn't do that with Vanamis. Or anyone. The only time he "vaporised a foe with impunity" was when he was seriously wounded and in utter desperation.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
"Sigh."Once again I am truly baffled by the complete lack of imagination and common sense so many on this board display.
Let me explain it to you; an actual fight in an actual story is NEVER as simple as "this guy is more skilled/powerful so he wins." You need to look at the little nuances and technicalities, the personalities and mind-sets of the combatants. That's how you write a good story. That's how you come up with ways for your protagonists to win against "superior" foes that still feel like a sensible outcome.
For example in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," in the episode "Fool for Love" Buffy is nearly killed by a run of the mill vampire because she was cocky and careless. Had she gone right for the kill she'd have won easily, but she did not.
Likewise, in "Princess Resurrection" Liza Wildman is able to defeat an immortal werewolf more physically powerful than her in part because he underestimated her and didn't take the fight seriously.
In this example, Jen flat-out admitted that if Plagueis knew in advance what Kenobi can do he'd just flatten him with the Force. But he DOESN'T know in advance and so won't do that because overt displays of power are not his usual M.O. Unless he gets desperate (like with those assassins), he usually goes for a more reserved approach and is generally reactive in his tactics. Just because he CAN blast Kenobi into mincemeat doesn't mean he will.
Also, unlike Venamis, Kenobi doesn't normally go for an all-out offensive. He'd put himself on the defensive. That means Plagueis won't feel the need to go all-out. This would allow Kenobi to lull him into a false sense of security and then cut him down as soon as he gets an opening.
Seriously, people need to learn to appreciate the subtleties that make these videos so much fun to watch, and the analyses that are incredibly helpful when considering how to construct fight scenes for your fan-fictions.
Also I notice no-one gives Jen or Even credit for giving a far more positive review of Plagueis's prowess as a fighter.
Cue the hate and mockery. If it's not too difficult please try to actually pay attention to my points while you're at it.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
"Sigh."Once again I am truly baffled by the complete lack of imagination and common sense so many on this board display.
Let me explain it to you; an actual fight in an actual story is...
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
You could only get the analysis they got if you were biased. It's pretty much common sense. If Plagueis saw he was being overwhelmed with the lightsaber or couldn't get passed Kenobi he would just spam his force powers, then it's game over.
The only ones biased are the Plagueis fanboys.
"Common sense" dictates that Kenobi won't even try to "overwhelm" Plagueis with the lightsabre because Kenobi is a defensive fighter. He's also a more tactical duellist. Jensaarai1 explained that Kenobi would hold back just enough to let Plagueis think "this guy's just barely holding me off" and then catch him with a killing blow when Plagueis had been lulled into a false sense of security.
Originally posted by Kurk
I understand what you're saying, but those smaller environmental factors are too complex and variable to be included in most debates. Plagueis has no morals and knows that his natural strength lies in the force not saber combat.
Thank you. I appreciate that you actually made the effort to understand.
However it isn't just a question of morals. It's also mind-set and tactics. Opening with overt displays of power isn't Plagueis's normal M.O. In the novel the only time he goes "full throttle" is when he's in utter desperation. Every other time he shows far more restraint.
People here (not you, just in general) seem to think Plagueis will just blast Kenobi into pulp with the Force right away. If they read the novel they'd know that's too out of character for Plagueis.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Plague is attacks and ramps up his assault until Kenobi is dead.
LOL! Grievous tried that and look how well that worked out. "Ramping up the assault" just doesn't work against Kenobi.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
More to the point "imagination" has no place in a logical debate, try sticking to the facts,
BORING! If this was a court case or something, sure then we'd have to stick to the facts, but Vs. matches are supposed to be FUN! It's no fun if you don't use your imagination.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
and an outcome like this would make for shitty fan fiction
How? A big part of fiction is coming up with a way for the underdog to prevail.
Originally posted by JKBartWell said. 馃憜
My problem with all of this is simple. I've been writing stories for about 8 years. Damn, I even wrote my own book. I understand that perfectly well.Fighting is random. Anybody who has experience or understanding of what combat truly is - knows combat is not just "this guy is 5% better in everything - he wins". You can be better by greater amount in every field possible and still lose a fight. It's more about luck. It's about one tiny, minor mistake, some bad position, 1 bad movement among 100 others. Being better allows you to have more chances, it means your chances of that one tiny mistake are lower, but both of you are gonna have huge chances of losing, and your advantage makes this shit lower, but fighting is random, it's a mess. It depends on who got the first strike and a better position for a good hit in the face at the beginning.
And I get that. I know how it works, and I've created great amount of stories myself, with quite many fights.
I am aware that fight between Kenobi and Fisto, despite clear superiority of the first, can end with Fisto winning just because of that randomness and how combat truly works. Of course there are huge disparities, mind you - I would quite honestly consider Plagueis vs. Kenobi a fight where Kenobi can't realistically win 1 on 1.
The final question is this - who the damn cares? I know you can very well imagine a fight where somebody truly inferior like Jacen can actually defeat Palpatine without huge circumstances, because [look at all the above]. Since I know that, what use do I have from shit like this? You're not creating a convincing story. You're not giving us a scenario where Kenobi wins against Plagueis. You're not giving me a neat fiction writing, a good scenario. You're just telling me the shit I've just described above.
Give me a good story where Kenobi gives Plagueis a good fight, a detailed one unlike "well it's totes possible". Or give me a good holistic comparison and judgement on their abilities, skills and tactics. Don't give me a half-assed shit supporting the non-detailed scenario. Give me one or another.
Fights debated on here on KMC and sites like that aren't the actual fights; it's comparing who is better. It's about giving a detailed rundown on what someone is truly capable of, and how better or worse he is. We know fights are random and can end either way until the gap between fighters is 300% (at least I know, lol).
Originally posted by chilled monkey
The only ones biased are the Plagueis fanboys."Common sense" dictates that Kenobi won't even try to "overwhelm" Plagueis with the lightsabre because Kenobi is a defensive fighter. He's also a more tactical duellist. Jensaarai1 explained that Kenobi would hold back just enough to let Plagueis think "this guy's just barely holding me off" and then catch him with a killing blow when Plagueis had been lulled into a false sense of security
When I typed my post in both cases actually. If Kenobi does go on offense and either plagueis is being overwhelmed or he can't break through his defense, he would resort to his force powers would he not? It's not like Kenobi is on Plagueis level as a force user so the comment he doesn't just cut loose isn't a trump card you may think. Plagueis only has to use a enough to overwhelm Kenobi's force wall. To add on the saber thing, Plagueis hates saber combat so he would 1) try and finish it as quick as possible and if he couldn't he would resort to force power 2) going off Evan and Jens logic he's more reactive so if he's not being attacked and he's the one attacking and he can't break through Kenobi's guard then he will go force power, and 3) if he can avoid saber combat he will and he'll just use force powers. So really at the end of the day Plagueis is a force user at heart and he will use them the moment he either feels threatened, he's not getting any where, or to avoid using his saber.
Originally posted by chilled monkeyIgnoring the fact that Kenobi was actually overwhelmed, Plagueis is better than Grievous in every practical way...
LOL! Grievous tried that and look how well that worked out. "Ramping up the assault" just doesn't work against Kenobi.
BORING! If this was a court case or something, sure then we'd have to stick to the facts, but Vs. matches are supposed to be FUN! It's no fun if you don't use your imagination.Coming up with contrived ways to dress up cancer is not "fun" in my books, it's headache inducing. 馃檪How? A big part of fiction is coming up with a way for the underdog to prevail.