Originally posted by h1a8
I guess you are delusional. I like both DD and Bruce Lee. I like to debate on who I think will win, not on who I want to win.And why even flame? Why not debate on who you believe wins. Stop the always derailing the threads with flame posts.
Nobody believes you, seeing as you changed your standard of evidence to give your pick the win.
Edit: oops, just saw Imp's post. Consider the tangent finished.
Imo DD from the show wasn't that impressive to me. He was getting tagged by streets and getting hurt too much. Bruce was able to beat a school of black belts without getting touched (including the Sensei like he was nothing). Bruce speed was phenomenal.
Bruce gained the Dragon (the glow) in both Return of the Dragon and Fist of Fury. In that state he's nearly invincible.
DD from comic would stomp Bruce though.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiWhy do you say this? I actually surprise at your response. I'm not saying your response that Bruce loses but that its a stomp.
Bruce Lee would get utterly curbed stomped by DD. This is a non fight.
I definitely could see Bruce winning. Feats for Bruce:
Killed people with one punch to the stomach
Strong enough to contend with a dude who was punching nails into wood within his fist.
Moved so fast that it look like he had multiple arms.
Moved so fast that a trained samurai and master could not touch him with their sword.
Defeated a dojo of trained fighters by himself.
Defeated a master with who had an iron hand and claw while using mirror tricks to confused Bruce.
That is just some of them.
How does DD stomp him?
Originally posted by Kotor3
Why do you say this? I actually surprise at your response. I'm not saying your response that Bruce loses but that its a stomp.I definitely could see Bruce winning. Feats for Bruce:
Killed people with one punch to the stomach
Strong enough to contend with a dude who was punching nails into wood within his fist.
Moved so fast that it look like he had multiple arms.
Moved so fast that a trained samurai and master could not touch him with their sword.
Defeated a dojo of trained fighters by himself.
Defeated a master with who had an iron hand and claw while using mirror tricks to confused Bruce.That is just some of them.
How does DD stomp him?
First off, I don't think much of the final feat you mentioned from Enter the Dragon. That guy wasn't much of a master imo, and didn't showcase much skill there. I was more impressed with him in the tourney than I was in the final fight.
Move so fast looks like he had multiple arms? Which movie is this from?
I think it's a stomp because of the evolution of MA in general and because of DD senses. Is radar like senses will give him a huge advantage over Bruce. SO you combine that, with his superior variety in MA training, I think he should take it convincingly. Maybe not a stomp stomp, that might've been too harsh, but he'll win convincingly
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
First off, I don't think much of the final feat you mentioned from Enter the Dragon. That guy wasn't much of a master imo, and didn't showcase much skill there. I was more impressed with him in the tourney than I was in the final fight.Move so fast looks like he had multiple arms? Which movie is this from?
I think it's a stomp because of the evolution of MA in general and because of DD senses. Is radar like senses will give him a huge advantage over Bruce. SO you combine that, with his superior variety in MA training, I think he should take it convincingly. Maybe not a stomp stomp, that might've been too harsh, but he'll win convincingly
All of that goes out of the window if you consider all the times DD has been tagged and beaten by random people. He didn't appear nowhere as fast as Bruce. Remember speed is very important. This isn't comic DD (he would stomp Bruce Lee).
Bruce dominanted highly skilled fighters far more easier than DD dominanted thugs.
Also consider that Bruce obtained the glow (Dragon) at the end of the Return of the Dragon and Chinese Connection. He was practically invincible in that state.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiThe movie is named The Chinese connection in the US. The sword and arm feat is from that movie as well as a lot of other feats. As for the Enter the Dragon movie, the guy was a definite master in fighting and trickery. I don't know how you draw a different conclusion.
First off, I don't think much of the final feat you mentioned from Enter the Dragon. That guy wasn't much of a master imo, and didn't showcase much skill there. I was more impressed with him in the tourney than I was in the final fight.Move so fast looks like he had multiple arms? Which movie is this from?
I think it's a stomp because of the evolution of MA in general and because of DD senses. Is radar like senses will give him a huge advantage over Bruce. SO you combine that, with his superior variety in MA training, I think he should take it convincingly. Maybe not a stomp stomp, that might've been too harsh, but he'll win convincingly
In real life Bruce Lee is view as one of the first MMA fighters. Many believe that Bruce Lee was murder for this reason and did not die from natural causes. He like Chuck N was verse in multiple arts of fighting. Bruce took various techniques from different fighting styles and form his own art which he pretty much was saying was superior to the non mixed art forums of fighting that existed at the time.
We see he was correct. That is why Chuck N stated that he believe Bruce and himself would do well in the UFC or MMA fighting.
As for DD senses they would do him well but Bruce speed, strength and striking power if by far much superior to DD in the movies and TV show.
Originally posted by Kotor3
The movie is named The Chinese connection in the US. The sword and arm feat is from that movie as well as a lot of other feats. As for the Enter the Dragon movie, the guy was a definite master in fighting and trickery. I don't know how you draw a different conclusion.In real life Bruce Lee is view as one of the first MMA fighters. Many believe that Bruce Lee was murder for this reason and did not die from natural causes. He like Chuck N was verse in multiple arts of fighting. Bruce took various techniques from different fighting styles and form his own art which he pretty much was saying was superior to the non mixed art forums of fighting that existed at the time.
We see he was correct. That is why Chuck N stated that he believe Bruce and himself would do well in the UFC or MMA fighting.
As for DD senses they would do him well but Bruce speed, strength and striking power if by far much superior to DD in the movies and TV show.
I'll have to watch Chinese Connection again. I remember not being all that found of that particular movie. Then again I wasn't big on The Game of Death, and some people loved that movie.
In hyperbole he was a master, by the eye test, he was pretty darn weak. I mean really, watch the scenes, he displayed no real skill or athleticism there. Sure, he did have some trickery up his sleeve, which further exemplifies my point. My resort to that, when you have all these weapons at your disposal and he's unarmed. To say nothing of, if you're really skilled h2h, why he resort to weapons? He didn't display anything impressive.
I do agree that Bruce was ahead of his time. As somebody that has watch many old Brazilian Vale Tudo fights... Pancrase.. Vale Tudo Japan... Pride etc etc I know a decent amount about MMA. Bruce was ahead of his time in that he diversified himself and what he studied. Not just striking arts, but also grappling. He was one of the first people to use arm bars and other basic grappling moves in his movies. So I won't argue there, he's just not DD level when it comes to overall skill level
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiI hear you and respect your opinion but if we are going to do a comparison against the two I believe Bruce has the advantage.
I'll have to watch Chinese Connection again. I remember not being all that found of that particular movie. Then again I wasn't big on The Game of Death, and some people loved that movie.In hyperbole he was a master, by the eye test, he was pretty darn weak. I mean really, watch the scenes, he displayed no real skill or athleticism there. Sure, he did have some trickery up his sleeve, which further exemplifies my point. My resort to that, when you have all these weapons at your disposal and he's unarmed. To say nothing of, if you're really skilled h2h, why he resort to weapons? He didn't display anything impressive.
I do agree that Bruce was ahead of his time. As somebody that has watch many old Brazilian Vale Tudo fights... Pancrase.. Vale Tudo Japan... Pride etc etc I know a decent amount about MMA. Bruce was ahead of his time in that he diversified himself and what he studied. Not just striking arts, but also grappling. He was one of the first people to use arm bars and other basic grappling moves in his movies. So I won't argue there, he's just not DD level when it comes to overall skill level
Strength - Bruce - DD (both TV and movies) has never displayed the strength that Bruce has in his movies.
Speed - Bruce is by far the superior and it is not even close.
Agility - DD does more jumping around so this goes to him but not by much. (Bruce scenes with the dogs in Fist of Fury and other scenes shows he is very agile)
Power - Bruce wins again. Bruce has killed people with one direct punch to their stomach and sometimes a few punches.
Senses - Goes to DD
Use of Weapons - Goes to Bruce
Skilled opponents - Goes to Bruce
The more I talk about it I am not seeing how DD wins. I can post specific feats for Bruce.
Originally posted by Kotor3
I hear you and respect your opinion but if we are going to do a comparison against the two I believe Bruce has the advantage.Strength - Bruce - DD (both TV and movies) has never displayed the strength that Bruce has in his movies.
Speed - Bruce is by far the superior and it is not even close.
Agility - DD does more jumping around so this goes to him but not by much. (Bruce scenes with the dogs in Fist of Fury and other scenes shows he is very agile)
Power - Bruce wins again. Bruce has killed people with one direct punch to their stomach and sometimes a few punches.
Senses - Goes to DD
Use of Weapons - Goes to Bruce
Skilled opponents - Goes to BruceThe more I talk about it I am not seeing how DD wins. I can post specific feats for Bruce.
First, let's be clear here, random thugs being able to hit DD is nothing more than CIS or PIS of the highest order. With his skill level and radar, that should never happen. This is a DD fighting not downgraded by PIS or CIS.
Second, I will say that I am a little bias in the way I analyze DD. What I mean is, I factor in what he SHOULD be based on the many DD comics I've read. As somebody illustrated before, in comics, DD would utterly stomp Bruce. You're right though, based on his movie and TV show portrayals, he doesn't seem as good. I agree. I'm just not really wanting to accept that fully because of what he should be and how we know the character should operate.
Third, I would agree with most of your analysis accept for the following. I strongly disagree that Bruce has faced better foes. To me Bullseye is better than anybody Bruce beat. DD easily tooled Electra, and again, knowing how good she is, is better than anybody Bruce beat. Then when we add in Kingpin and Punisher... I think it becomes pretty clear. Some of the below feats illustrate the point. I can't see Bruce pulling off some of the stuff done here. Which again illustrates DD overall superior skill imo.
Fourth, speed is even tough for me. I don't think it's as big of a gap or a gap that you're making it out to be. Actually watch the speed on their punches. Just because Bruce makes loud noises and backhands somebody and KO's them while doing a great flexing pose.. doesn't mean that punch was faster than what DD can throw. They illustrate his speed more, but again, he's facing foes that are inferior imo. Even if he's a faster, it's not by all that much.
Fifth, you're forgetting two key aspects of the fight. Durability goes to DD and reactions go to DD. Those are two variables just as important as the ones you mentioned.
I also respect your opinion Kotor and appreciate the good response.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbq_23h4j4M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qokXrQO0aU
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiI agree that no one Thug is any match for DD. The same can be said for Bruce. See clip below. Thug could not even move after the first hit:
First, let's be clear here, random thugs being able to hit DD is nothing more than CIS or PIS of the highest order. With his skill level and radar, that should never happen. This is a DD fighting not downgraded by PIS or CIS.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiI can post all of the fight scenes that Bruce has had but it would be better to just go to youtube.
Third, I would agree with most of your analysis accept for the following. I strongly disagree that Bruce has faced better foes. To me Bullseye is better than anybody Bruce beat. DD easily tooled Electra, and again, knowing how good she is, is better than anybody Bruce beat. Then when we add in Kingpin and Punisher... I think it becomes pretty clear. Some of the below feats illustrate the point. I can't see Bruce pulling off some of the stuff done here. Which again illustrates DD overall superior skill imo.
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiI believe you need to watch Bruce again. His speed is by far superior even with today’s advances in film.
Fourth, speed is even tough for me. I don't think it's as big of a gap or a gap that you're making it out to be. Actually watch the speed on their punches. Just because Bruce makes loud noises and backhands somebody and KO's them while doing a great flexing pose.. doesn't mean that punch was faster than what DD can throw. They illustrate his speed more, but again, he's facing foes that are inferior imo. Even if he's a faster, it's not by all that much.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Fifth, you're forgetting two key aspects of the fight. Durability goes to DD and reactions go to DD. Those are two variables just as important as the ones you mentioned.
I also respect your opinion Kotor and appreciate the good response.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbq_23h4j4M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qokXrQO0aU
But I agree durability and reactions go to DD. The thing is in close quarters Bruce speed, skill, and power make up for those. DD hits are not going to be powerful enough to rock Bruce but Bruce hits will rock or kill DD if or when he connects.
@KuRuPT Thanosi
Excuse my spelling and grammar. For some reason I cannot go back and edit.
One more thing. DD needed a suit to take on Kingpin. Bruce took hits from extremely powerful opponents like in Robert Barker without any armor. Fought multiple opponents without armor.
I think you view Bruce like a fighter like Transporter. He is not. He is portrayed in Chinese Connection as a super hero of martial arts. That is how they express super hero powers in the Asian film market.
Originally posted by Kotor3
@KuRuPT Thanosi
Excuse my spelling and grammar. For some reason I cannot go back and edit.One more thing. DD needed a suit to take on Kingpin. Bruce took hits from extremely powerful opponents like in Robert Barker without any armor. Fought multiple opponents without armor.
I think you view Bruce like a fighter like Transporter. He is not. He is portrayed in Chinese Connection as a super hero of martial arts. That is how they express super hero powers in the Asian film market.
For some reason it won't let me quote your above post. So I'll no. our discussions here.
1. No, not one of those people would beat Elektra, not one. I think you're forgetting that she has beaten supernatural and superhuman people before. None of the bad guys you mentioned were on the level of the best people Elektra has beaten. DD tooled her
A. I also disagree about Bullseye only being good with weapons. If you'll recall, he battled both Elektra and DD h2h at various points and held his own just fine.
B. You're correct that he fought Kingpin with a suit. But Kingpin, again, was above anybody Lee faced. Kingpin was incredible strong and durable guy. He was superhuman strength wise really.
2. I'll agree Bruce is slightly faster in h2h, but DD is faster in overall movement during combat
3. I'll watch CC again, and see if it jogs my memory. You could be right about this movie. But again, we can't just use that movie. If the OP had stated Lee from CC, then you're correct. He didn't though, so we have to go with all his movies and how he was portrayed, just not the highest movie.
Below is an example of one villain Elektra fought and later beat. Even with weapons, Elektra beating him is far above anything Bruce has done in cinema
Originally posted by KuRuPT ThanosiNice discussion but we are not going to agree and it because of how you view Bruce and his opponents and that is as regular people who are skilled in martial arts. In Asian film superhuman things are shown through how gifted you are in martial arts.
For some reason it won't let me quote your above post. So I'll no. our discussions here.1. No, not one of those people would beat Elektra, not one. I think you're forgetting that she has beaten supernatural and superhuman people before. None of the bad guys you mentioned were on the level of the best people Elektra has beaten. DD tooled her
A. I also disagree about Bullseye only being good with weapons. If you'll recall, he battled both Elektra and DD h2h at various points and held his own just fine.
B. You're correct that he fought Kingpin with a suit. But Kingpin, again, was above anybody Lee faced. Kingpin was incredible strong and durable guy. He was superhuman strength wise really.2. I'll agree Bruce is slightly faster in h2h, but DD is faster in overall movement during combat
3. I'll watch CC again, and see if it jogs my memory. You could be right about this movie. But again, we can't just use that movie. If the OP had stated Lee from CC, then you're correct. He didn't though, so we have to go with all his movies and how he was portrayed, just not the highest movie.
Below is an example of one villain Elektra fought and later beat. Even with weapons, Elektra beating him is far above anything Bruce has done in cinema
The clip with Elecktra was very unimpressive as was the movie. But I get the point you are making is that he was supernatural. Well I am saying that some of Bruce opponents as well as himself were supernatural not in the same sense but in the sense of reaching peak human ability.
Yes you take all movie feats which I have but you don't diminished his greatest feats because he has smaller ones in other movies. In the clip they are using weapons. H2H how do they win?
Kingpin of the show and movie do not display strength feats greater than the ones I mentioned for Robert Barker in Chinese Connection.
Here is the biggest thing. No one in DD besides Kingpin has shown the ability to kill someone with one direct hit. Bruce has, his opponents have shown similar power. There was nothing normal about the speed, power, or durability of Bruce and those three opponents.
I am not seeing it.