fun read, thanks KMC.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Apparently J'onn can take down entire JLA+JSA+Anyone not named Flash or Silver Surfer on comicvine. These fine young men are from comicvine of course.Some people think I hate or having nightmares about Silver Surfer because I don't give him win over everyone. Seemed like a reasonable response.
😛
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...you didn't even know about this showing in the past until I brought it up. You kept denying it until I posted the scene. You have no rights to ask me this question.
It was all a dream Carter.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Have you read the comic?
Originally posted by carver9
Lol...you didn't even know about this showing in the past until I brought it up. You kept denying it until I posted the scene. You have no rights to ask me this question.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Feats will always beat statements, and Superman will always have better feats.J'onn's powerset is VASTLY overrated.
Jack of all trades, master of none and so on.
Bran put it fairly well once.
Manhunter is all offense and no defense.
He might be as strong as Superman, but his durability is something else.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Feats will always beat statements, and Superman will always have better feats.J'onn's powerset is VASTLY overrated.
Jack of all trades, master of none and so on.
I wouldn't say overrated, really. More like very badly written, to the point where even reasonable scenario's look like some fringe fantasy.
By power set alone, a slightly physically inferior Superman clone with TP, invisibility, phase shifting, and "just below plastic man" shape shifting should be able to beat most purely physical brawlers.
And occasionally, you get good writing that proves it. Ostrander's a big one.. He not only had J'onn hold off the entire league long enough to effect an escape, but had him use his power intelligently in all kinds of circumstances..
Facing a Hulk like brick? No problem, shapeshift into putty and just tank the punch, then engulf the monster. (A tactic proven to work on Superman himself against a White Martian in a JLA story, forcing the desperation tactic of using the Earth's molten core.)
Fighting a New God with a hyperspace sword that could defeat phase shifting? Bust out a form that makes you look like a Lord of the Rings troll mixed with a Lovecraftian horror, that had three arms and a giant shield and a dripping organic hook designed for decapitations (Ostrander turned J'onn into a horrific alien freakshow, which was AWESOME.)
Getting blown up? Just move your soul into your hand, chuck the hand, regrow the hand into a new body.
Superman charging you? Phase shift.
Fighting an amped up, magic enhanced Etrigan at Stonehenge? Go invisible, phase shift through the floor behind him, create giant arsed razor claws from Megaman, PUNCTURE THROUGH ETRIGAN'S CHEST, and then extend the claw into the ground to pin him.
Sure, this is just one series, but how many big feats does Superman bust out on a regular basis in team books? Take away his solo stuff, and you'd get a much less impressive Superman (This goes for almost every character..)
And even then, there's J'onn beating Ultraman with TP. Or the (Admittedly non canon) All Access crossover where he shapeshift's as Captain America to blindside Thor.
None of this is to say J'onn invincible, certainly. But he's not the punching bag many seem to assume, either, even if that's how a ton of writer's make it seem.
But may as well not even have a full capacity rule, and declare Flash the loser against Captain Boomerang if we're going there.. Commonly written ≠ full capacity.
Originally posted by cdtm
I wouldn't say overrated, really. More like very badly written, to the point where even reasonable scenario's look like some fringe fantasy.By power set alone, a slightly physically inferior Superman clone with TP, invisibility, phase shifting, and "just below plastic man" shape shifting should be able to beat most purely physical brawlers.
And occasionally, you get good writing that proves it. Ostrander's a big one.. He not only had J'onn hold off the entire league long enough to effect an escape, but had him use his power intelligently in all kinds of circumstances..
Facing a Hulk like brick? No problem, shapeshift into putty and just tank the punch, then engulf the monster. (A tactic proven to work on Superman himself against a White Martian in a JLA story, forcing the desperation tactic of using the Earth's molten core.)
Fighting a New God with a hyperspace sword that could defeat phase shifting? Bust out a form that makes you look like a Lord of the Rings troll mixed with a Lovecraftian horror, that had three arms and a giant shield and a dripping organic hook designed for decapitations (Ostrander turned J'onn into a horrific alien freakshow, which was AWESOME.)
Getting blown up? Just move your soul into your hand, chuck the hand, regrow the hand into a new body.
Superman charging you? Phase shift.
Fighting an amped up, magic enhanced Etrigan at Stonehenge? Go invisible, phase shift through the floor behind him, create giant arsed razor claws from Megaman, PUNCTURE THROUGH ETRIGAN'S CHEST, and then extend the claw into the ground to pin him.
Sure, this is just one series, but how many big feats does Superman bust out on a regular basis in team books? Take away his solo stuff, and you'd get a much less impressive Superman (This goes for almost every character..)
And even then, there's J'onn beating Ultraman with TP. Or the (Admittedly non canon) All Access crossover where he shapeshift's as Captain America to blindside Thor.
None of this is to say J'onn invincible, certainly. But he's not the punching bag many seem to assume, either, even if that's how a ton of writer's make it seem.
But may as well not even have a full capacity rule, and declare Flash the loser against Captain Boomerang if we're going there.. Commonly written ≠ full capacity.
TBH, I see your point, but I think you're straying dangerously close to describing what you would do with J'onn's powers, not what he's likely to do. If you aren't there already.
When I spoke about his powerset being overrated, I meant to the extent that people (a lot of them) love to take the opinion that having lots of powers is somehow automatically better than having a small bunch of powers. It isn't an auto win, and tbh, I think people understate the gap in speed and strength between J'onn and Superman.
Originally posted by -Pr-
TBH, I see your point, but I think you're straying dangerously close to describing what you would do with J'onn's powers, not what he's likely to do. If you aren't there already.When I spoke about his powerset being overrated, I meant to the extent that people (a lot of them) love to take the opinion that having lots of powers is somehow automatically better than having a small bunch of powers. It isn't an auto win, and tbh, I think people understate the gap in speed and strength between J'onn and Superman.
Everything I said was things he actually did in the aformentioned Ostrander run. Nothing made up on my part.
Ever seen the scans floating around where J'onn hulks out from Choco withdrawl? Those are from that run. 🙂 (John Ostrander is basically a better built Grant Morrison in that he builds up characters to the moon with feats, but he also has pretty compelling writing. His Spectre run is famous, but he did wonders for Iron Fist and Luke Cage in Heroes for Hire as well..)
Originally posted by cdtm
Everything I said was things he actually did in the aformentioned Ostrander run. Nothing made up on my part.Ever seen the scans floating around where J'onn hulks out from Choco withdrawl? Those are from that run. 🙂 (John Ostrander is basically a better built Grant Morrison in that he builds up characters to the moon with feats, but he also has pretty compelling writing. His Spectre run is famous, but he did wonders for Iron Fist and Luke Cage in Heroes for Hire as well..)
I'm talking about how likely he is to do them on a consistent basis.
Yes, I liked Ostrander's run too, but in the grand scope of J'onn, it's as close to an outlier as you can get, sadly.
Originally posted by -Pr-
I'm talking about how likely he is to do them on a consistent basis.Yes, I liked Ostrander's run too, but in the grand scope of J'onn, it's as close to an outlier as you can get, sadly.
Point taken.
To be fair, outside of select showings which Ostranders series is among, the Spectre is as big a jobber as anyone, and still gets some respect. (More then J'onn, at any rate.)
If we used that version of J'onn, how would you rate his chances vs a pre or post Nu52 Superman? 🙂
Originally posted by cdtm
Point taken.To be fair, outside of select showings which Ostranders series is among, the Spectre is as big a jobber as anyone, and still gets some respect. (More then J'onn, at any rate.)
If we used that version of J'onn, how would you rate his chances vs a pre or post Nu52 Superman? 🙂
A lot better, but I still think that Superman will beat him in the end. J'onn has more tools at his disposal, sure, but without going all Fernus, I just don't see it being enough.