I don't see Obi-Wan's focus mode making much of a difference when Dooku can still anticipate anything he attempts with Ataru, and Obi-Wan just isn't winning with Soresu.
That's two advantages (Ataru surprise & getting the two brothers in each other's way) irrelevant.
On the other hand, Tyranus is likely still capable of beating Obi-Wan in a fencing contest, but even if not, he can easily exploit Obi-Wan's shitty, prone-to-lapse Force defenses to ragdoll him.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't see Obi-Wan's focus mode making much of a difference when Dooku can still anticipate anything he attempts with Ataru, and Obi-Wan just isn't winning with Soresu.That's two advantages (Ataru surprise & getting the two brothers in each other's way) irrelevant.
On the other hand, Tyranus is likely still capable of beating Obi-Wan in a fencing contest, but even if not, he can easily exploit Obi-Wan's shitty, prone-to-lapse Force defenses to ragdoll him.
A far superior argument to saying ROTS Grievous >> Maul and Opress combined.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
1)Where Maul gets cut in half by a padawan?2)Where Maul only defeats Kenobi because he's injured/exhausted?
3)Where Maul looses to Kenobi with his brother Savage at his side?
1)Where Maul matched Master and Padawan together. You arguing he was no match for the Padawan? LMAO
2) Excuses much? Kanan after getting torture for days performed better against the GI than ever before. Getting slapped around a bit before the fight is hardly a massive excuse against a Maul whose not fought in 10 years LMAO
3) Tell me who was floored at the end: Maul or Savage. Hell Maul and Kenobi even had a 1 on 1 in the same episode which lasted longer than the 2 on 1 and still left no conclusion.
@Azronger: Maul started winning that fight before the dun moch.
So yeah they've always been peers. No amount of Maul hate is going to change that. In fact Rebels is putting these 2 peers against each other once more.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
2) Excuses much? Kanan after getting torture for days performed better against the GI than ever before. Getting slapped around a bit before the fight is hardly a massive excuse against a Maul whose not fought in 10 years LMAO
Yeah because he was amped off of Ezra's apparent death. Shit argument.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Yeah because he was amped off of Ezra's apparent death. Shit argument.
And he was useless before that right? Wait no he was fighting just as well as usual, and was properly tortured unlike Kenobi. And it was GI's first proper Lightsaber fight in 10 years right? No wait it wasn't at all.
In any case, the focused Kanan just proved when someone's capable the prior "torture" shouldn't be an excuse.
So the "shit" seems to be yours.
Alright, this is my response to Darth Thor, and my case for Dooku winning this. This went on longer than I had planned, and I’m not too keen on WoT debates, so I’m not sure I’ll respond.
As you all know, Dooku made short work of Obi-Wan in their fight in RotS, when it came down to Force abilities, in a manner that could be labeled as ”one-shotting,” ”stomping,” or ”ragdolling,” since, you know, Dooku simply picked him up in a Force choke and threw him aside, knocking him out in one blow.
The unfortunate reality here is that Dooku could just as easily do the same to ”focus-mode” Kenobi, since, as you all know, this ”focus-mode” was absolutely useless against Darth Maul when he decided to employ his Force powers. And Darth Maul is very much an inferior Force wielder to Dooku; he proved this when, in the very same episode, he struggled to pull down a shuttle from a cliff. Contrast that with Dooku, who tosses around much larger ships like tennis balls:
They moved farther into the darkness.
"Keep your focus loose," Obi-Wan warned him in a low tone. "He will come from anywhere when he comes."
"This time I'll be prepared."
"Don't be so confident," Obi-Wan answered. "You probably won't be."
They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.
Like phantoms..
Phantoms that move...
Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.
Then he knew.
"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.
"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.
Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.
He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.
The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.
Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.
"It's no use," he told Anakin. "The Sith is gone."
-Jedi Quest: Showdown
So Dooku is very much capable of one-shotting this ”focus-mode” Kenobi, like he did in RotS.
And no, Kenobi is not going to be able to press Dooku with his Jar’Kai offensive to the point where he isn’t able to use his Force abilities. Dooku has dealt with similar assaults like that before rather efficiently, and even when pressed by Anakin ”destroyer droid with a lightsaber” Skywalker, that presented absolutely no trouble from doing this.
And, again, no, ”focus-mode” Kenobi is not better than Anakin ”destroyer droid with a lightsaber” Skywalker, or even General Grievous, offensively. Because ”focus-mode” Kenobi has already fought Grievous in RotS. Yes, you read right, Kenobi was in fact in the very same ”focus-mode” when facing against Grievous, as described by the RotS novelization:
Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.
[…]
Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there...
So even when Obi-Wan is focused like that, Grievous manages to overwhelm his guard. The same Grievous, who Dooku has repeatedly outfenced. This ”focus-mode” only puts Kenobi on Dooku’s level at best, and that is only as of RotS. TCW Kenobi, with his inferior swordplay, will only be methodically picked apart by Dooku in a fencing contest.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Sure, it's not an excuse when you are amped.
If that was an Amp then Kenobi was also Amped against Maul & Opress. But tbh what you're calling Amps were really just Peak performances.
Kanan proved that being tortured doesn't necessarily mean you can't give your best after. Especially given (again) that Kenobi really hadn't been tortured yet, just slapped around a bit, and that really it was his opponent facing the bigger disadvantage in that fight (having not fought properly in 10+years).
Originally posted by Darth Thor
So Grievous is > Maul & Savage combined now.. Wow. These boards have lost their marbles when it comes to the Maul Bros.Yeah sure Dooku got slammed on the floor then choked, but he didn't struggle 😬
SW.COM confirms he barely had the edge over the duo.
Grievous perhaps is > Savage alone. And perhaps not. Grievous coulnd't beat Fisto and Ventress, and Savage's performance against Sidious is confirmed to be superior to Fisto's/Tiin's/Kolar's.
Maul is cleary above Grievous.
Kenobi's performance on Florrum are also somehow overrated. S5 Savage is a poor fighter. If only Adi had more physical strenght, she might be able to beat him. She land a kick on his knee, which - with Anakin's or Mace's strenght - could even broke it. She was overhelmed by his strengh, not skill.
Savage got nearly owned by Kenobi, if not Maul he would be dead even before their battle in a cave. And during that one, he got a lot of kicks by Kenobi. One of them enabled Kenobi to cat-off his arm.
Savage was also pathetic, when he was stomped by Maul. And not, it wasn't due to Maul's superior legs. Maul stomped him due to superior skill.
And it's worth of noted, that in a cave, Kenobi did nothing, that would put his performances above Maul's. Maul saved Savage before that battle, he overhelmed Kenobi with TK, and slamed him onto wall at the end of their fight. He got kicked once ot twice in the whole episode.
Originally posted by Azronger
Alright, this is my response to Darth Thor, and my case for Dooku winning this.
Notice how I never actually claimed Dooku doesn't win this. Just that it's going to be a much harder fight than he put up in ROTS.
Originally posted by Azronger
This went on longer than I had planned, and I’m not too keen on WoT debates, so I’m not sure I’ll respond.
That's up to you. It does seem as if you've made up your mind and not budging on this, but that won't stop me from presenting the facts in their correct context.
Originally posted by Azronger
As you all know, Dooku made short work of Obi-Wan in their fight in RotS, when it came down to Force abilities, in a manner that could be labeled as ”one-shotting,” ”stomping,” or ”ragdolling,” since, you know, Dooku simply picked him up in a Force choke and threw him aside, knocking him out in one blow.The unfortunate reality here is that Dooku could just as easily do the same to ”focus-mode” Kenobi, since, as you all know, this ”focus-mode” was absolutely useless against Darth Maul when he decided to employ his Force powers.
Ah except in that fight Kenobi was fending off dual opponents. If he was just facing Darth Maul alone, going all Jar Kai on him in that small cave, then it would be a lot less likely for Maul to pull that off.
Originally posted by Azronger
And Darth Maul is very much an inferior Force wielder to Dooku; he proved this when, in the very same episode, he struggled to pull down a shuttle from a cliff. Contrast that with Dooku, who tosses around much larger ships like tennis balls:They moved farther into the darkness.
"Keep your focus loose," Obi-Wan warned him in a low tone. "He will come from anywhere when he comes."
"This time I'll be prepared."
"Don't be so confident," Obi-Wan answered. "You probably won't be."They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.
Like phantoms..
Phantoms that move...
Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.
Then he knew.
"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.
"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.
Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.
The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.
Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.
"It's no use," he told Anakin. "The Sith is gone."
-Jedi Quest: Showdown
Maul is inferior, but I don't think it's to the extent you're making out. Pulling that Jedi craft is actually superior to any TK feat Dooku has shown in Canon. But when you powerscale even in Canon I do agree Dooku comes out on top.
Originally posted by Azronger
So Dooku is very much capable of one-shotting this ”focus-mode” Kenobi, like he did in RotS.And no, Kenobi is not going to be able to press Dooku with his Jar’Kai offensive to the point where he isn’t able to use his Force abilities. Dooku has dealt with similar assaults like that before rather efficiently, and even when pressed by Anakin ”destroyer droid with a lightsaber” Skywalker, that presented absolutely no trouble from doing this.
And, again, no, ”focus-mode” Kenobi is not better than Anakin ”destroyer droid with a lightsaber” Skywalker, or even General Grievous, offensively.
Dooku has never dealt against "Focus-mode" Kenobi.
It's not just about the Jar Kai, but also about the tight environment which suits Kenobi's form far better than it suits Dooku's form.
Originally posted by Azronger
Because ”focus-mode” Kenobi has already fought Grievous in RotS. Yes, you read right, Kenobi was in fact in the very same ”focus-mode” when facing against Grievous, as described by the RotS novelization:Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.
[…]
Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there...
Nothing in that passage puts Kenobi on the same level of Focus as he was against the Maul bros.
You forget, going by creator commentary, Kenobi was already fully and properly focused against Maul in their 1 on 1 on Florrum, but then after Adi died he was even more focused, to right that wrong.
Nothing anywhere suggests Kenobi having that level of motivation against Grievous. And neither did he give him everything he had- Jar Kai and Ataro acrobatics combined with perfect Soresu defenses.
Originally posted by Azronger
So even when Obi-Wan is focused like that, Grievous manages to overwhelm his guard. The same Grievous, who Dooku has repeatedly outfenced. This ”focus-mode” only puts Kenobi on Dooku’s level at best, and that is only as of RotS. TCW Kenobi, with his inferior swordplay, will only be methodically picked apart by Dooku in a fencing contest.
You keep saying Grievous overhwelmed Kenobi, yet it was Grievous getting his arms chopped off, whilst never once landing any kind of hit on Kenobi.
And if we go by your "Dooku easily stomped Kenobi", then it's only fair to say Kenobi easily stomped Grievous.
Fact is Grievous was not even close to the challenge of fighting both Maul bros combined. Grievous is no match for Maul alone, who has overpowered Grievous twice in SOD, once physically and once with TK.
Even if we powerscale, Grievous was struggling to overpower S5 Ahsoka, whereas a stronger Ahsoka still knows she can't take Maul alone in the Ahsoka novel.
In any case, Kenobi's form was specifically noted as being particularly advantageous against Grievous. So these Grievous comparisons need to stop, as they're not at all relevant to the argument.
