Vitiate - Shedding Limitations

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So Ant, should we start doing rematches of Luke vs Vader, Qui-Gon vs Maul, Dooku vs Yoda etc. etc. considering their new feats and accolades?

Yeah, this logic is retarded, and disturbing.

To fix both of our issues, a rule can be established that feats cannot overrule older feats (unless a retcon is established), but feats can overrule older accolades. That way, consistency can be met, but we're also as up-to-date with the current viewpoints and lore as possible.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Screaming "continuity still doesn't work that way!" doesn't mean much to me either, champ.

The notion that a quote from, say, 1978 still holds authority on a subject during 2016 despite *new* material is found is not only laughable, but makes me inclined to believe you have to check out the following site: https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/down/conditioninfo/Pages/treatments.aspx

Your method of thinking is inherently limiting, not based on current lore, and frankly disturbing, if not outright offensive to mankind.

But this is what actual canon policy says. Your proposal is entirely fan made; even then, we'd be more willing to entertain creating such house rules if you actually presented a rigorous epistemological case. Instead, you appeal to incredulity, gut intuition, and thinly veiled circular posts where you just rephrase your position and use it to justify itself.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But this is what actual canon policy says..

Oh wait, it doesn't. 🙂

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Link to where "actual canon policy" says that?

Oh wait, it doesn't. 🙂

EU policy said sources were true until contradicted. There was no expiration date. You just made that up.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
EU policy said sources were true until contradicted.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Conversely, the notion that if character A is shown with the power of Y as of 2000, and then a quote from 2001 states that character B is greater than A, but then in 2012 character A shows the power of 5Y, limiting him to the former quote leads to a frankly outdated and inaccurate assessment of the current lore.

To fix both of our issues, a rule can be established that feats cannot overrule older feats (unless a retcon is established), but feats can overrule older accolades. That way, consistency can be met, but we're also as up-to-date with the current viewpoints and lore as possible.

Even if that logic were to be adopted though, this still wouldn't serve your argument. Simply because continuity does and always will remain, new content will always build itself up off of old material - and that's were your case collapses in on itself.

To take your example, even if we assume Character A > 2001 B does not mean Character A > 2012 B, the fact 2001 & 2012 B share identical attributes and experiences, means that it can easily be proven that the older version is capable of the newer version's feats.

A better example. Yes, 2016 Tenebrae built a super special holocron. But guess what? Plagueis > 2012 SWTOR Vitiate, who possesses all the knowledge and experience of 10 year old Tenebrae (which has not been altered in any form), and furthermore, consumed an entire planet + 8,000 Sith, then went on to explore the "most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side."

Or in brief, 2012 SWTOR Vitiate could absolutely replicate that feat, and we've no reason to assume otherwise. And Plagueis is still better than him, as per the novel. An accolade that irrespective of this logic, still stands.

The same form of argument can be applied to all his SoR, RotE showings as well. Whereas your attempted stance only works if any of the aforementioned incarnations were given a new power boost or something, or pulled off a feat that a latter incarnation simply couldn't do, making that version inherently superior to the 2012 model. But you haven't, leaving you with nothing. 🙂

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Screaming "continuity still doesn't work that way!" doesn't mean much to me either, champ.

The notion that a quote from, say, 1978 still holds authority on a subject during 2016 despite *new* material is found is not only laughable, but makes me inclined to believe you have to check out the following site: https://www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/down/conditioninfo/Pages/treatments.aspx

Your method of thinking is inherently limiting, not based on current lore, and frankly disturbing, if not outright offensive to mankind.

This is pathetic. You're praised as one of the top debaters here, yet the only things you can come up with are an ad hominem and an argument from personal incredulity.

I know you can do better, I've seen it. So why won't you?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Conversely, the notion that if character A is shown with the power of Y as of 2000, and then a quote from 2001 states that character B is greater than A, but then in 2012 character A shows the power of 5Y, limiting him to the former quote leads to a frankly outdated and inaccurate assessment of the current lore.

To fix both of our issues, a rule can be established that feats cannot overrule older feats (unless a retcon is established), but feats can overrule older accolades. That way, consistency can be met, but we're also as up-to-date with the current viewpoints and lore as possible.

There's nothing proving B cannot have the power of 100Y, and simply saying he hasn't is an argument from ignorance. You've really become fond of fallacies, haven't you?

However, I agree that if, for example, A lifts a 100 kg rock with ease, and an accolade proclaiming B, who struggles with lifting a 50 kg rock as stronger than A, said accolade would be called into question.

Nothing Valkorion has done has been proven impossible for Plagueis to do, though. Plagueis doesn't have a single instance where his powers are pushed to their limit, or even close to it. The accolade stands.

@Azronger & Beniboybling: Feats are *always* derived from primary and secondary sources. Accolades comparing characters from different sources, however, makes them inherently secondary or tertiary sources. After all, secondary sources are works derived from what is established from previous works. And tertiary are encyclopedias, etc. In the case of the Darth Plagueis blurb, the quote declaring him the most powerful is derived from a comparison across all-existing sources. Thus, the distinction between already established power-levels through combat, and the power-levels established through broad accolades, is that the former is universally solidified in a primary source, whereas the latter is always from a secondary and tertiary source. Thus, the introduction of new primary material, such as all the post-launch SWTOR expansions, holds not only blatant higher authority to the quote, but is not restricted by the content or claims the quote places. I'll concede that by merit of the holocron he is not superior to Darth Plagueis, since that's a tertiary claim, but to repeat, the actions seen in a primary source isn't restricted by a secondary.

Now, this doesn't mean Vitiate is more powerful than Darth Plagueis, but rather he's not restricted to the quote, allowing for a new assessment to take place.

This is pathetic. You're praised as one of the top debaters here, yet the only things you can come up with are an ad hominem and an argument from personal incredulity.

Insulting someone isn't indication of desperation. It's merely addressing their stupidity.

For example, if one would claim the world was flat, you'd first tell them they were stupid, then explain why they're wrong.

I would, at least. 😮‍💨

I'm on my phone rn and don't wish to look up canon policy, but why are we so obsessed with this holocron feat anyway? There's no evidence that holocron creation requires that much raw power (even Bane can do it); it may be an impressive feat in arcane knowledge (not really combat applicable and might have just been taught to him) or incentive genius (surpassed by the likes of Anakin anyway), but it's not such overwhelming of a case as to contradict an explicit statement to Plagueis's benefit.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I'm on my phone rn and don't wish to look up canon policy, but why are we so obsessed with this holocron feat anyway? There's no evidence that holocron creation requires that much raw power (even Bane can do it); it may be an impressive feat in arcane knowledge (not really combat applicable and might have just been taught to him) or incentive genius (surpassed by the likes of Anakin anyway), but it's not such overwhelming of a case as to contradict an explicit statement to Plagueis's benefit.

Refer to my post.

A simple argument in this matter involves the case of Darth Bane. This character has blurbs under his belt that imply that he was superior to all practitioners of the Dark Side that came before him. Objectively speaking, this is not true, but the blurbs are there.

However, we are looking at double-standards of Sheevites here. They want to take Darth Plagueis's blurb seriously but ignore Darth Bane's.

@Ant: Azronger was responding to a post where all you did was insult your detractors' intelligence and declare your opinions self evident.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
@Ant: Azronger was responding to a post where all you did was insult your detractors' intelligence and declare your opinions self evident.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
a rule can be established

Ah, that's what you're gunning for.

That being said, I'm off for tonight. I'll respond tomorrow.

I advise discussing with each other via PMs and writing one post that reflects all your arguments, rather than multiple ones.

In the case of the latter, I'll just respond to whoever I feel like.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Ah, that's what you're gunning for.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
@Azronger & Beniboybling: Feats are *always* derived from primary and secondary sources. Accolades comparing characters from different sources, however, makes them inherently secondary or tertiary sources. After all, secondary sources are works derived from what is established from previous works. And tertiary are encyclopedias, etc. In the case of the Darth Plagueis blurb, the quote declaring him the most powerful is derived from a comparison across all-existing sources. Thus, the distinction between already established power-levels through combat, and the power-levels established through broad accolades, is that the former is universally solidified in a primary source, whereas the latter is always from a secondary and tertiary source. Thus, the introduction of new primary material, such as all the post-launch SWTOR expansions, holds not only blatant higher authority to the quote, but is not restricted by the content or claims the quote places. I'll concede that by merit of the holocron he is not superior to Darth Plagueis, since that's a tertiary claim, but to repeat, the actions seen in a primary source isn't restricted by a secondary.

Now, this doesn't mean Vitiate is more powerful than Darth Plagueis, but rather he's not restricted to the quote, allowing for a new assessment to take place.

What's the point of having sourcebooks if any new published material automatically invalidates them even if no direct contradiction exists?

To clarify and summarize the preexisting material. Some sourcebooks even create new content, in which those claims would be primary.

The entire argument strikes me as a strawman anyway, since these blurbs aren't claimed to be binding, but rather shift the burden to the opposing party to present countering evidence. And nobody has done that for Vitiate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
A simple argument in this matter involves the case of Darth Bane. This character has blurbs under his belt that imply that he was superior to all practitioners of the Dark Side that came before him. Objectively speaking, this is not true, but the blurbs are there.

However, we are looking at double-standards of Sheevites here. They want to take Darth Plagueis's blurb seriously but ignore Darth Bane's.

What blurbs does Bane have? The only one I've seen doesn't say anything of the sort.

And yeah, Vitiate/Valkorion is obviously superior to Plagueis. However, Sidious remains the one True Emperor.