Originally posted by NewGuy01
...what? Naturally if you destroy something, it will remain destroyed in the future. You just claimed that Zen-Oh's destruction of Trunk's timeline erased the past, which is factually not true.Indeed, it has.
I’m referring to the anime, which is completely different from the manga. The manga isn’t even the primary canon of DBS. The anime is.
Regarding IG Thanos vs Omni-King...The Classic IG has been used outside of its native universe (in LT's realm,) has transcended creation via the actuality ripple, (A casual exertion of the IG's energies that reached all the way to the Beyond Realm):
http://i.imgur.com/YRYEfqy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lWC0oyh.jpg
Furthermore, the IG is stated to be far more powerful than the Cosmic Egg, which is 30 CCU's. One CCU has performed multi-universal feats in the past.
http://i.imgur.com/X3jkfdq.jpg
Then there's the fact that an incomplete IG (it didn't even have the reality gem) easily overpowered the UN, which has been used on Multiversal scale before (it even completely destroyed and recreated reality in an instant).
Beyond its raw power (which is AT LEAST on par with Zen-Oh,) the IG gives the wielder complete mastery over all aspects of reality (space, reality, time, mind, soul, power,) hence why the wielder is referred to, in essence, THE God.
The Living Tribunal wasn't even sure if he could take Warlock w/the IG head on, and had to resort to making the gems not work in unison, as opposed to confronting it with brute force.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Not anymore. If anything, the manga is actually more canon at this point.Also, @Gogeta, Trunks and Mai do the same thing in the anime as well. They travel to the timeline before it was erased by Zen-Oh. So he didn't erase the past.
How so? In all fairness, I haven't read the manga in ages, but it was established early on that the anime was primary canon.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Regarding IG Thanos vs Omni-King...The Classic IG has been used outside of its native universe (in LT's realm,) has transcended creation via the actuality ripple, (A casual exertion of the IG's energies that reached all the way to the Beyond Realm):http://i.imgur.com/YRYEfqy.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lWC0oyh.jpg
Furthermore, the IG is stated to be far more powerful than the Cosmic Egg, which is 30 CCU's. One CCU has performed multi-universal feats in the past.
http://i.imgur.com/X3jkfdq.jpg
Then there's the fact that an incomplete IG (it didn't even have the reality gem) easily overpowered the UN, which has been used on Multiversal scale before (it even completely destroyed and recreated reality in an instant).
Beyond its raw power (which is AT LEAST on par with Zen-Oh,) the IG gives the wielder complete mastery over all aspects of reality (space, reality, time, mind, soul, power,) hence why the wielder is referred to, in essence, THE God.
The Living Tribunal wasn't even sure if he could take Warlock w/the IG head on, and had to resort to making the gems not work in unison, as opposed to confronting it with brute force.
Well, like I said, I don't really know much about Marvel just because I'm not a huge fan of it. Although there is only one point that you just made that could solidify it making Thanos > Zeno, and that is that it allegedly overpowered the UN. I'd very much like to see that, if you have scans of it.
To be honest, the actuality ripple is impressive, but it's comparable to what Jiren did by casually shaking the Void with just his ki.
Remember, I'm not arguing that Jiren or Zeno would beat them in terms of power, but honestly it seems to me like Jiren would have a better chance than Zeno. I could definitely see Jiren, if he had knowledge of Thanos and knew that he would have to blitz him so hard that he could take the gauntlet off of him and put it on himself, being able to defeat Thanos that way. Otherwise, he'd have no chance. Silver Surfer almost did it though, and Jiren is vastly above him in terms of strength and speed. Thanos might be ridiculously more powerful than Jiren once he has the IG, but in that scenario, I could see Jiren pulling a W, as long as he takes the gauntlet before Thanos can use it. That's just my two cents, I could be wrong.
Regardless though, I'd like to see the IG overpowering the UN if you have the scans.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
How so? In all fairness, I haven't read the manga in ages, but it was established early on that the anime was primary canon.
Yeah, originally the manga was created to advertise the anime, but things have changed since the U6 tournament. Toyotaro has his own style/his own story now that slightly differs from the anime. It turns out that Toyotaro was the one who came up with the idea of Vegetto returning in both the manga and the anime.
Furthermore, we recently learned that Toyotaro sends his drafts to Toriyama (who is the ultimate source of DB/DBZ/DBS canon,) who then looks over/approves/makes changes to Toyotaro's drafts. We have no reason he does the same with Toei (who seems to prefer to do things their own way).
As such, there is really no reason to believe the anime is any more canon than the manga, and it's entirely possible that the opposite is true.
Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Well, like I said, I don't really know much about Marvel just because I'm not a huge fan of it. Although there is only one point that you just made that could solidify it making Thanos > Zeno, and that is that it allegedly overpowered the UN. I'd very much like to see that, if you have scans of it.To be honest, the actuality ripple is impressive, but it's comparable to what Jiren did by casually shaking the Void with just his ki.
Here's the scan of the IG overpowering the UN:
With but a Thought, I turn the universe's most devastating weapon upon its bearer. My every whim is a mere urge away from Reality. So this is how it feels to be Omnipotent. Interesting.
Keep in mind that this was an incomplete IG. No way in hell does Zen-Oh not only have that depth of power, but also that versatility in terms of having mastery over all aspects of reality. I genuinely don't think it's much of a fight.
Regarding the actuality ripple, I'd argue it's far more impressive than what Jiren did because of a few reasons:
Jiren shook a single infinite dimension, (if we assume the dimension was nothingness, then Jiren didn't really shake anything. The best we could say is that his ki "reached" infinity). Thanos, on the other hand, sent a shockwave across a transfinite ("beyond infinite"😉 Multiverse, with various higher dimensions, dimensional barriers, pocket realms, etc. And in reaching the Beyond Realm, it reached a level where even the Marvel Multiverse, "dwindled into utter insignificance":
How can we have transcended all that is? Even now, Eternity dwindles into insignificance before me!
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZIt's a non-fight, tbh... Especially when you consider that the UN has destroyed/recreated the entire Marvel multiverse(ie. INFINITE universes) with, literally, the click of a button. As you mentioned, this is important because even an INCOMPLETE IG(it was missing the phucking REALITY gem at the time) is still > the UN.
Here's the scan of the IG overpowering the UN:Keep in mind that this was an incomplete IG. No way in hell does Zen-Oh not only have that depth of power, but also that versatility in terms of having mastery over all aspects of reality. I genuinely don't think it's much of a fight.
Zen-Oh is extremely powerful(especially by DB standards), but he still has a LONG way to go to ever stand a chance against a competent IG-wielder.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Yeah, originally the manga was created to advertise the anime, but things have changed since the U6 tournament. Toyotaro has his own style/his own story now that slightly differs from the anime. It turns out that Toyotaro was the one who came up with the idea of Vegetto returning in both the manga and the anime.Furthermore, we recently learned that Toyotaro sends his drafts to Toriyama (who is the ultimate source of DB/DBZ/DBS canon,) who then looks over/approves/makes changes to Toyotaro's drafts. We have no reason he does the same with Toei (who seems to prefer to do things their own way).
As such, there is really no reason to believe the anime is any more canon than the manga, and it's entirely possible that the opposite is true.
Here's the scan of the IG overpowering the UN:
Keep in mind that this was an incomplete IG. No way in hell does Zen-Oh not only have that depth of power, but also that versatility in terms of having mastery over all aspects of reality. I genuinely don't think it's much of a fight.
Regarding the actuality ripple, I'd argue it's far more impressive than what Jiren did because of a few reasons:
Jiren shook a single infinite dimension, (if we assume the dimension was nothingness, then Jiren didn't really shake anything. The best we could say is that his ki "reached" infinity). Thanos, on the other hand, sent a shockwave across a transfinite ("beyond infinite"😉 Multiverse, with various higher dimensions, dimensional barriers, pocket realms, etc. And in reaching the Beyond Realm, it reached a level where even the Marvel Multiverse, "dwindled into utter insignificance":
Toyotaro is directly involved in both the anime and manga. As the anime is further along thus far, it is considered the primary canon, whereas the manga is more of a rendition of Toriyama's acceptance of Toyotaro's story. Basically Toriyama has very little to do with the anime, and more with the manga. Toriyama himself though has admitted that Toyotaro is probably more consistent at this point though- because Toriyama's mind has been slipping. He can't even remember most things from the original series, that he wrote all by himself. He forgot Launch even existed, after her appearance in the Saiyan saga. Sadly, at this point, Toyotaro's work is more cannon than Toriyama's. He's said so himself in multiple interviews, and refers to Toyotaro as the person he's essentially "passing the torch onto". Therefore, the manga and anime are both canon in their own sense, but the anime is further along, making it the primary canon.
Anyways,
Eh, that scan is unimpressive, in my opinion. That didn't show the gauntlet overpowering the UN, it just showed it stopping someone from using it. Have there been other showings, more definitive than this? I assumed you meant that someone used the UN on an IG user, and it didn't work, or something of that nature. In the scan you just showed, the UN didn't even get used, lol. That's a cop-out, from what I can tell.
No, I definitely agree that it's more impressive than what Jiren did, lol. For sure. I'm just saying that it's not so impressive that it makes Jiren's feat seem insignificant, which is what you're seeming to suggest. It could even be considered a similar feat, if we take the "world of void" to be what it was stated to be- which is infinite. It's basically an infinite dimension, according to the statements about it thus far. If that's true, it basically did exactly what Thanos' ripple did, just without reaching the Beyond. Whether this is comparable or not, we can't be sure, but it can definitely be argued as such.
Also, I'm not arguing that Zeno is as strong as the IG, lol. I'm saying, in fact, that he's not. At least going by his current feats. He's multiversal though, and he hasn't been serious once, lol, so that could certainly change as more of his character is revealed. However, Jiren has enough feats to put him on a level where he could potentially snag the gauntlet from Thanos, and defeat him. Even if he would need to be off-guard to allow this to happen. Thanos DOES have a subconscious desire to lose.
We just don't really know enough about Jiren or Zeno, at this point, to say definitively whether they would win or not. So for now, they lose. *shrug*
