Darth Maul and Darth Tyranus vs Arcann and Outlander

Originally posted by Nephthys
What does that matter? It was a Force Push that came from the same direction her opponent was in. Her defenses wouldn't change between defending against Senya or Arcann. And Arcann is obviously stronger than her regardless. And Vaylin, in turn, is easily stronger than Maul is.

Sel Makor wasn't weakened, and certainly wasn't highly weakened. He was in his Dark Heart of power if anything.

Because Vaylin was focusing on Senya so if someone else, even someone who standing next to her, attacks her then she's going to be caught off guard (especially since she never expected her brother to turn against her). But even that doesn't matter since the push was completely ineffective against her anyway, that's not even close to being evidence that Arcann > Vaylin. On a sidenote, what would make Vaylin stronger then Maul?

Oh my mistake, I don't know that storyline so I can't possibly comment on that.

Sel Makor has good hype but no showings, so the feat by itself doest mean much even though it adds nicely to the context of HoT's power.

Weakened Vitiate, however, is capable of bringing down large portions of gigantic buildings after being struck: an event that damaged him so much that he was nearing death as a deity afterwards. It is only logical that he'd be more powerful before he was struck down in the battle. Since Vitiate doesn't do CQC, and was trying to finally execute his 1300 year long plan, I assume he would bring all he has in the Force at that moment to stop HoT, which means that "TK application in non-combat situations doesn't reflect one's limits in combat" argument doesn't fit well with Vitiate, as much as it does with characters like Vader. Arcann pretty much ragdolled the guy who resisted this Vitiate. Proof that he doesn't ragdoll Maul?

Also, as I've said many times, HoT:

1) Is oriented in melee/saber combat (meaning duels are what he is best at)
2) Has accolades/feats that suggest high raw power
3) Has mastered all lightsaber forms

When it comes to dueling, the guy has high level of natural talent, technical skill, and force amp to make him an excellent duelist. And Arcann defeats/stalemates him in sabers. Proof Maul can do better?

Not sure how team 1 is winning this. And lol @ Kenobi > Outlander

Originally posted by Sinious
Sel Makor has good hype but no showings, so the feat by itself doest mean much even though it adds nicely to the context of HoT's power.

Weakened Vitiate, however, is capable of bringing down large portions of gigantic buildings after being struck: an event that damaged him so much that he was nearing death as a deity afterwards. It is only logical that he'd be more powerful before he was struck down in the battle. Since Vitiate doesn't do CQC, and was trying to finally execute his 1300 year long plan, I assume he would bring all he has in the Force at that moment to stop HoT, which means that "TK application in non-combat situations doesn't reflect one's limits in combat" argument doesn't fit well with Vitiate, as much as it does with characters like Vader. Arcann pretty much ragdolled the guy who resisted this Vitiate. Proof that he doesn't ragdoll Maul?

Because Vitiate releashing all his power in the end before he died isn't comparable to utilizing a Force Push in combat, even if he would like to win (like probably any character in a fight). Obi-Wan, even years before AotC, has better feats then collapsing a small part of a temple and that's not even the amount of power Vitiate used on the Hero/Outlander. so I doubt Arcann comes even close to dominating Maul through the Force.

Also, as I've said many times, HoT:

1) Is oriented in melee/saber combat (meaning duels are what he is best at)
2) Has accolades/feats that suggest high raw power
3) Has mastered all lightsaber forms

When it comes to dueling, the guy has high level of natural talent, technical skill, and force amp to make him an excellent duelist. And Arcann defeats/stalemates him in sabers. Proof Maul can do better?

That's all good and fine but how does that come close to outdueling one of the most skilled Jedi ever (Qui-Gon) alongside his padawan (Obi-Wan) that rivaled him in skill or pushing back end-TCW Obi-Wan?

Not sure how team 1 is winning this. And lol @ Kenobi > Outlander

Yeah Kenobi > Outland in all areas.

Team 2 stomps

Either beat Maul in a duel, or ragdoll him with the force. Dooku can't carry him

Team one wins lightsabers.

Team two wins in the Force.

Team two wins all out

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Because Vaylin was focusing on Senya so if someone else, even someone who standing next to her, attacks her then she's going to be caught off guard (especially since she never expected her brother to turn against her). But even that doesn't matter since the push was completely ineffective against her anyway, that's not even close to being evidence that Arcann > Vaylin. On a sidenote, what would make Vaylin stronger then Maul?

Oh my mistake, I don't know that storyline so I can't possibly comment on that.

I don't see how it would change how her defenses are impacted by the attack. Even if Vaylin didn't expect it to come from Arcann, since it came from practically the same direction and position her force shields would be hit by it as if it were an attack from Senya and she'd be anticipating an attack from that area. Vaylin tore apart a massive generator and threw it at the building. The chunk of metal she threw at it was comparable in size to the building, which itself was around 12 stories tall. Vaylin and Senya are both inferior to the Outlander and Arcann since Senya defeated Vaylin, whilst the entire point of the Outlander's rescue is that they're the only one who stands a chance of beating Arcann, Senya included. Therefore Arcann > Senya >/= Vaylin.

Ok, so what do you think of the Wrath disintegrating a blast door albeit with the aid of a Jedi Master that's far inferior to him? Not to mention the feats of the Barsen'thor who even weakened and right at the beginning of her career smashed through a blast door the size of a building and has otherwise thrown chunks of metal the size of a bus a hundred feet casually, tanked an explosion that incinerated a blast door while highly weakened, smashed through an "impenetrable" Rakatan Vault Door deemed impossible for a Jedi to break and defeated an Ancient Sith Lord empowered by hundreds of Jedi Masters, while highly weakened? Or the Hero of Tython who is greatest Jedi of the era, even including who I just mentioned, more skilled even than one stated to embody the virtue itself. Or Darth Nox, an incredibly powerful Sith Lord who augmented her power with that of 5 Force Ghosts and shitstomped Darth Thanaton while backhanding force lightning?

Because Arcann was able to defeat any of those guys.

I'll respond in a couple of hours, I'm eating now.

Same 🙂

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Because Vitiate releashing all his power in the end before he died isn't comparable to utilizing a Force Push in combat, even if he would like to win (like probably any character in a fight). Obi-Wan, even years before AotC, has better feats then collapsing a small part of a temple and that's not even the amount of power Vitiate used on the Hero/Outlander. so I doubt Arcann comes even close to dominating Maul through the Force.

That's all good and fine but how does that come close to outdueling one of the most skilled Jedi ever (Qui-Gon) alongside his padawan (Obi-Wan) that rivaled him in skill or pushing back end-TCW Obi-Wan?

Edit: TCW is by far the most unreliable source for duels, and Obi-wan had moments where he was besting Maul+Savage.

Yeah Kenobi > Outland in all areas.

Originally posted by Sinious
Which is why I said it doesn't apply to him as much as it does to Vader and didn't completely disregard that factor. The crucial thing is that Vitiate tried to stop HoT by using solely the Force and this is how it ended: Vitiate's offense was depleted before HoT's defenses were overwhelmed. More importantly, Vitiate was struck down, and that event weakened him a lot more than he already was. It's arguably the biggest setback he ever suffers from. Non-combat TK > combat TK, sure. Weakened Vitiate >(probably >>😉 Struck down weakened Vitiate. And what makes you think it's a "small part" of the temple?

I could agree on that Vitiate (uninjured) is very likely more powerful tehn Vitiate (injured), sure. The difference however between landing a Force Push in general and him collapsing part of the Temple is that in the first situation he isn't going to use all his energy because he has a duel to fight while in the second instance he's dying and unleashing ALL of his power since he doesn't have to spare any of it anymore. That's where the difference lies according to me.

Being one of the most skilled Jedi doesn't mean anything concrete, where I've given you a specific analysis of how HoT is OP as a combatant. And are you seriously bringing up the fight where Maul gets cut in half by a padawan like a retard? 😂

It does considering the Jedi Order spans over 25000 years, as it marks him as one of the most skilled amongst millions of trained Jedi contrary to the Outlander/Hero being the best of his time (which would make him the best amongst thousands) but not only that, also the fact that Maul was "easily" holding an advantage over the [I] combined might [I] of one of the most skilled Jedi and Padawan that rivaled him in skill. I'm not even going to start about Maul being struck down by TPM Obi-Wan, that has been explained in depth before.

Edit: TCW is by far the most unreliable source for duels, and Obi-wan had moments where he was besting Maul+Savage.

Again, there was stated a very specific reason why Obi-Wan was performing as well as he did on Florrum (the brothers hindering each others movements, limited space, Obi-Wan's sudden offensive approach caught them off guard) so no it's not that unreliable when it comes to straight up dueling.

So far you've done nothing to prove that absurd statement.

I've provided you feats of Maul which would mark him superior while you've only said he was a master duelist because he mastered all 7 forms amongst others things, I think the difference is clear.

@Nepthys I'll have to look more into those characters before I can give an answer.

Rip DarthDuelist9

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
I could agree on that Vitiate (uninjured) is very likely more powerful tehn Vitiate (injured), sure. The difference however between landing a Force Push in general and him collapsing part of the Temple is that in the first situation he isn't going to use all his energy because he has a duel to fight while in the second instance he's dying and unleashing ALL of his power since he doesn't have to spare any of it anymore. That's where the difference lies according to me.

It does considering the Jedi Order spans over 25000 years, as it marks him as one of the most skilled amongst millions of trained Jedi contrary to the Outlander/Hero being the best of his time (which would make him the best amongst thousands) but not only that, also the fact that Maul was "easily" holding an advantage over the [I] combined might [I] of one of the most skilled Jedi and Padawan that rivaled him in skill. I'm not even going to start about Maul being struck down by TPM Obi-Wan, that has been explained in depth before.

Again, there was stated a very specific reason why Obi-Wan was performing as well as he did on Florrum (the brothers hindering each others movements, limited space, Obi-Wan's sudden offensive approach caught them off guard) so no it's not that unreliable when it comes to straight up dueling.

I've provided you feats of Maul which would mark him superior while you've only said he was a master duelist because he mastered all 7 forms amongst others things, I think the difference is clear.