Mm.
Okay, I'll bite.
Originally posted by JKBartQuite possibly the most agreeable response to the thread. I don't understand what he's lacking in terms of versatility aside from Lightning though. He's shown plenty of abilities others haven't that aren't necessarily combat related.
He isn't weak, he is powerful, and there are tons of Sith that are inferior to him in power. His versatility is very low for his power level, though.
Originally posted by ZenwolfThe thing I find cancerous about this outlook is the notion that you can divide Force users into "sabers guy" and "Force guy" - everything a Force user does is an expression of their connection to the Force.
Because he was trained as an assassin/warrior, he had no need for such abilities. He makes up for this in his physicals, martial arts and bladework.
It's not as simple as counting how many abilities one has; there's also the degree of mastery one has with the said ability. E.g Quinlan Vos (Legends), a novice Dark Sider managed to instinctively call upon Force lightning, indicating it isn't a very advanced technique, but when he tried to use it against Volffe Karkko he was pimpslapped and had much more powerful lightning returned to him. Using Zenwolf's method of deduction, Vos would appear more versatile than Karkko because "he can do the lightnings too and he is a saber guy!". Factor in potency and it's a different story.
The difference between Maul and most Sith who can call upon the all-mighty Force lightning, which novices and non-Sith can figure out how to use, is that when they're stabbed in the stomach they are out of commission, whereas you can cut Maul in half and it will literally just piss him off more. He is one of the single greatest Sith when it comes to Force augmentation and tapping into Force rage.
Originally posted by Solar PowerIf you're referring to the discussion between Plagueis and Sidious, I'd ask that you consider the fact that when Sidious was pitching the idea of training Maul, it would probably be a bad idea to mention that his plan the whole time was to murder Plagueis and have Maul rule alongside him as the new Rule of Two partnership, which is confirmed by both the novel, other Legends sources and now the canon interpretation of Maul (which is that he was Sidious' apprentice up until TPM, and was then out of the picture when Anakin came along).
What Bart said, and also the information in Darth Plaguies concerning his training.
Also... I don't get the issue with a Sith training as the warrior archetype. The Sith's ultimate goal is to kill the Jedi and rule the galaxy; the Sith warrior being trained to kill Jedi embodies this Sith ideal and uses the most effective means of murdering it's target: their own body and telekinesis. They'll have skill in Telepathy, perhaps lightning, and some other techniques, but the ones they truly master are the ones that allow them to complete their ultimate goal. I don't see how it could be viewed as an inferior path to take if you learnt a greater multitude of Force techniques which could end up being useless, opposed to mastering the few that get the job done. And as most of us know, most sourcebooks list Maul as being one of the most "highly trained" "lethal" "dangerous" and "skilled" Sith in the history of the Sith Order.
Just going to leave this here, as well. A post where I refer to a multitude of sources essentially debunking every notion presented in this thread, from Maul being weak, lacking versatility, having incomplete training, etc. I'm aware this was a troll thread but, on the off chance some of you were just mistaken and are open to seeing a different argument:
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDIMO, Force lightning should have been a HIGH-END Force power; only the greatest Sith should have been capable of using it. However, George Lucas (being an idiot he is), cheapened it in Episode II and it became mainstream from there.
Yes he cheapened it by giving the ability to a total of one other Sith- Dooku.
You see Maul can't win. If he shoots Lightning, then the ability has obviously been cheapened where any Dark Sider can use it. If he doesn't shoot Lightning then it's because he sucks 😬
FYI It was Legends that cheapened Force Lightning, not Lucas.
If anything Legends cheapened lightning by giving it to every Tom, Dick and Harry... opposed to Lucas giving it to Sidious (most powerful Sith ever) and Dooku (at the time, second most powerful).
That said, there is the issue of potency. Lightning can be shit, powerful enough to ash people and everything in between.
Originally posted by ILS👆
Mm.Okay, I'll bite.
Quite possibly the most agreeable response to the thread. I don't understand what he's lacking in terms of versatility aside from Lightning though. He's shown plenty of abilities others haven't that aren't necessarily combat related.
The thing I find cancerous about this outlook is the notion that you can divide Force users into "sabers guy" and "Force guy" - everything a Force user does is an expression of their connection to the Force.It's not as simple as counting how many abilities one has; there's also the degree of mastery one has with the said ability. E.g Quinlan Vos (Legends), a novice Dark Sider managed to instinctively call upon Force lightning, indicating it isn't a very advanced technique, but when he tried to use it against Volffe Karkko he was pimpslapped and had much more powerful lightning returned to him. Using Zenwolf's method of deduction, Vos would appear more versatile than Karkko because "he can do the lightnings too and he is a saber guy!". Factor in potency and it's a different story.
The difference between Maul and most Sith who can call upon the all-mighty Force lightning, which novices and non-Sith can figure out how to use, is that when they're stabbed in the stomach they are out of commission, whereas you can cut Maul in half and it will literally just piss him off more. He is one of the single greatest Sith when it comes to Force augmentation and tapping into Force rage.
If you're referring to the discussion between Plagueis and Sidious, I'd ask that you consider the fact that when Sidious was pitching the idea of training Maul, it would probably be a bad idea to mention that his plan the whole time was to murder Plagueis and have Maul rule alongside him as the new Rule of Two partnership, which is confirmed by both the novel, other Legends sources and now the canon interpretation of Maul (which is that he was Sidious' apprentice up until TPM, and was then out of the picture when Anakin came along).
Also... I don't get the issue with a Sith training as the warrior archetype. The Sith's ultimate goal is to kill the Jedi and rule the galaxy; the Sith warrior being trained to kill Jedi embodies this Sith ideal and uses the most effective means of murdering it's target: their own body and telekinesis. They'll have skill in Telepathy, perhaps lightning, and some other techniques, but the ones they truly master are the ones that allow them to complete their ultimate goal. I don't see how it could be viewed as an inferior path to take if you learnt a greater multitude of Force techniques which could end up being useless, opposed to mastering the few that get the job done. And as most of us know, most sourcebooks list Maul as being one of the most "highly trained" "lethal" "dangerous" and "skilled" Sith in the history of the Sith Order.
Just going to leave this here, as well. A post where I refer to a multitude of sources essentially debunking every notion presented in this thread, from Maul being weak, lacking versatility, having incomplete training, etc. I'm aware this was a troll thread but, on the off chance some of you were just mistaken and are open to seeing a different argument:
Originally posted by Azronger
He isn't anything spectacular, though,
He is. He's one of the Deadliest Sith Apprentices of all time. Maybe just one of the deadliest Sith of all time.
That's been confirmed in both Legends and Canon.
Plus wasn't he rated on the same tier as Dooku in Sabers by Nick Gillard, and actually above Dooku in Sabers by that Top 5 Red Saber duelist list? mmm
Originally posted by ILS
The thing I find cancerous about this outlook is the notion that you can divide Force users into "sabers guy" and "Force guy" - everything a Force user does is an expression of their connection to the Force.It's not as simple as counting how many abilities one has; there's also the degree of mastery one has with the said ability. E.g Quinlan Vos (Legends), a novice Dark Sider managed to instinctively call upon Force lightning, indicating it isn't a very advanced technique, but when he tried to use it against Volffe Karkko he was pimpslapped and had much more powerful lightning returned to him. Using Zenwolf's method of deduction, Vos would appear more versatile than Karkko because "he can do the lightnings too and he is a saber guy!". Factor in potency and it's a different story.
The difference between Maul and most Sith who can call upon the all-mighty Force lightning, which novices and non-Sith can figure out how to use, is that when they're stabbed in the stomach they are out of commission, whereas you can cut Maul in half and it will literally just piss him off more. He is one of the single greatest Sith when it comes to Force augmentation and tapping into Force rage.
Swords I wasn't trying to downplay Maul or anything, just that....well that's what Maul was focused on, his saber skills, material arts and physicals.
So I don't see why you find it 'cancerous'....when that's what it is.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Swords I wasn't trying to downplay Maul or anything, just that....well that's what Maul was focused on, his saber skills, material arts and physicals.So I don't see why you find it 'cancerous'....when that's what it is.
Perhaps he had more focus on martial prowess than exotic powers, but he was definitely trained in the ways of the Sith, and not just as a mere assassin. At least in Canon anyway.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Perhaps he had more focus on martial prowess than exotic powers, but he was definitely trained in the ways of the Sith, and not just as a mere assassin. At least in Canon anyway.
Well I wasn't really trying to say he was trained as just as a simple assassin, he was clearly a Sith, I guess I should have used different wording there or just threw in Sith. So apologies on that.
Originally posted by ZenwolfBecause for one, Maul did dedicate time to non-combat/esoteric Force powers, just not lightning, and two, warrior-related Force abilities are still Force abilities, and therefore an indication of power.
Swords I wasn't trying to downplay Maul or anything, just that....well that's what Maul was focused on, his saber skills, material arts and physicals.So I don't see why you find it 'cancerous'....when that's what it is.
I suppose cancerous was a bit much though, apologies.