I know. My point is that it'd likely apply to Maul as well.
I'm disputing the fact that he'd do better. Both would be flat-out overwhelmed in solo combat, since Anakin's just better. I'm saying that Dooku's ability to exploit potential mistakes in Anakin's fighting would likely leave him better off than Maul.
Originally posted by SunRazer
[B]I didn't say a lack of knowledge harms someone, but having that knowledge helps you significantly. It basically meant that Obi-Wan had no offensive ability against Dooku. Maul doesn't have that, so that's an advantage of Dooku's that he's lost, no matter how you spin it.
Besides, you haven't even established that Dooku has "an encyclopaedic knowledge" of Ataru and that Obi-Wan lacks it.
If anything, it's the other way around. It's established that mastery of multiple forms is required to even attempt Juyo. Dooku on the other hand disdained any forms other than his own.
RotS Anakin is as physical and ferocious as Maul, though - that's the thing. And he's better at the physicals.
And I don't see how you can say with a straight face that Anakin is stronger physically. Have you read what the teenage Maul did in Lockdown?
The Savage that Anakin fought seems to be stronger than Maul, and certainly much stronger than he normally is.
Savage: "I'm not like you... I never was".
As for Ventress, that tends to be just TCW. RotS Anakin is far and away superior to the versions of Anakkin that you cited, by the way.
Yoda wasn't holding back per the script, and no obvious implication of him holding back was in either the film or the novel. You only have the junior novel, where Yoda pretty much only fights defensively and Dooku can't break through said defenses. But there's sources suggesting that Dooku was near-equal to Yoda as well, and other sources suggesting that the Count legitimately contended with Yoda.
On the one hand Yoda is a Jedi, not a savage beast like Sidious. He uses as much force as is necessary. Then there's the emotional baggage of fighting his prized pupil and someone he loved.
And I think it's mentioned somewhere(the junior novel) that he intended to capture, not kill. Coincidentally, that's also exactly what happened in Dark Rendezvous.
Sidious was holding back to an almost certainly greater degree (than Yoda) against Maul, and yet, even with Savage's aid, Maul was being outright controlled in his fight with Sidious. That wasn't so with Dooku against Yoda. There was a legitimate sense of contention - one utterly missing from Maul vs Sidious until the end part where Maul was enraged over his brother's death, and even then, Sidious was confirmed to be toying with him.Likewise, Dooku performs better against Yoda in the movie script that Maul does against Sidious in Shadow Conspiracy, sources in which both Yoda and Sidious are going all-out.
I doubt Dooku would have fared any better in Maul's place.
Based on a single snapshot?
[QUOTE=16013404No, it's better because it allows him to address his opponent's technique instead of just bullrushing into his opponents, one of which is better than Maul at the whole bullrushing thing to begin with. Exploiting momentary lapses and flaws in your opponent's technique is going to be a lot more effective here than charging headlong into a tier 9 and a tier 8 that works with said tier 9 perfectly.
[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure why you're calling it "bullrushing". Maul is one of the most technically skilled duelists in history. Savage is bullrushing, not Maul.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I know. My point is that it'd likely apply to Maul as well.I'm disputing the fact that he'd do better. Both would be flat-out overwhelmed in solo combat, since Anakin's just better. I'm saying that Dooku's ability to exploit potential mistakes in Anakin's fighting would likely leave him better off than Maul.
Fair enough. I think Maul potentially meeting Anakin head on can be a mitigating factor to Sky's siginificant superiority, and better than the approach Dooku originally opted for at first and was cornered on later.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Maul lacks Dooku's encyclopedic knowledge on Ataru, any familiarity with Anakin, and his (Dooku's) performance against other tier 9's. Tyranus' style is also, in my opinion, better for engagements like this.Maul shouldn't be able to replicate Dooku's performance, no.
I think you make a good argument, but I disagree with the inherent contradiction you make in this post. Familiarity with Anakin isn't an advantage Dooku possesses in Legends because it was new information to him that Skywalker was a Djem So expert. I know you can, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Dooku not engage Skywalker since AotC in Legends? They had a close call in LoE, but they didn't engage in lightsaber combat.
Dooku would have familiarity in canon, where TCW Maul exists, but if we're using canon fights then you can't use the argument that he has an encyclopedic knowledge of Ataru since he revealed that during Anakin and Obi Wan's ploy which is strictly a legends feat, as the ploy isn't portrayed in the film which is canon.
Originally posted by Kurk
😕
"Form II allowed an initiate to defend themself against an opponent with minimal effort, while placing a heavy focus on avoiding disarmament."
Even the most aggressive fighter defends, and even the most defensive fighter attacks.
A defensive fighter is someone like Obi-Wan. His whole philosophy centers on being the "eye of the storm", giving ground, prolonging the fight, being passive and allowing his opponent to expend his energy.
Dooku was thrown on the defensive, but it's not something he would do if he had any choice.
Originally posted by Unbowed
If Maul had no trouble against Qui-Gon, probably the strongest Ataru user after Yoda, I daresay Obi-Wan's journeyman efforts won't phase him.
There's no basis for Qui-Gon's Ataru being better than Obi-Wan's, who we know to have both mastered Ataru and attained a general level of skill beyond that of Qui-Gon's.
Besides, you haven't even established that Dooku has "an encyclopaedic knowledge" of Ataru and that Obi-Wan lacks it.
Obi-Wan lacks what? I never said anything about Obi-Wan lacking knowledge on Ataru.
For Dooku:
Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics.-- Revenge of the Sith
If anything, it's the other way around. It's established that mastery of multiple forms is required to even attempt Juyo. Dooku on the other hand disdained any forms other than his own.
Dooku disdained other forms, but he knew them all. That' show he taught Grievous all the forms, and why in addition to "classical fighting techniques", he also knows a variety of untraditional combat forms from all over the galaxy:
Qui-Gon Jinn's lightsaber may not be as ornate as that of his mentor, Count Dooku, but true to his rebellious ways, he used it to master the same classical fighting techniques as well as untraditional combat forms from across the galaxy.-- Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons
Is he though? Even Anakin at his most ferocious failed to breach Obi-Wan's defenses, either in sabers or in the Force. Maul did overpower Obi-Wan in the Force, and he was going to eventually overpower him in sabers in their first duel post-revival.
You mean a severely hindered Anakin at his most ferocious. And in the novel, he does breach Obi-Wan's Force defenses, albeit Obi-Wan had yet to "let go" at that point.
Maul only overpowered Obi-Wan in sabers after mentally unhinging him with Dun Moch. Moreover, the fact that Obi-Wan and Anakin knew each other's fighting styles inside-out obviously drastically reduces any disparity between them. It's a circumstantial comparison between the two - one that Maul has no part in.
It's a fact that Anakin's a better duelist than RotS Obi-Wan.
"Hayden in this film has gone up to a level nine. He's gone past Obi."
"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."-- http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/nick_gillard_talks_rots_game_92147.asp
'Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him,' he notes.-- The Making of Revenge of the Sith
"Obi knows that Anakin is better than him, but because he taught him, he knows emotionally how he’s going to behave."--http://www.theforce.net/episode3/story/nick_gillard_talks_rots_game_92147.asp
The ease with which Kenobi had taken command of the situation was frightening. More frightening was the fact that of the two, Skywalker was reportedly the greater warrior.-- Revenge of the Sith
And I don't see how you can say with a straight face that Anakin is stronger physically. Have you read what the teenage Maul did in Lockdown?
I have. Nothing that compares to nearly breaking the bones of beings whose Force augmented durability supersedes that of the interiors of capital ships.
Don't delude yourself. Savage was never shown, stated or implied to be on the same level as Maul.Savage: "I'm not like you... I never was".
That's because Savage never reaches the levels of rage that he does in Witches of the Mist ever again. It's practically PIS in that episode. Maul's never shown that level of power.
There are no "versions". It's the same character. Anakin has grown in power steadily throughout the Clone Wars and he was particularly prepared on the Invisible Hand, but the difference is not as dramatic as you're implying.
You know full well what I mean.
But Ahsoka eventually became disillusioned and left the Jedi Order, an act which Anakin regretted.The Clone Wars continued, and Anakin became a hero and grew vastly in power.
Do you think Yoda fought Dooku with the same fervor he fought Sidious?
According to the film script, yes. Yoda attempted to decapitate Dooku.
On the one hand Yoda is a Jedi, not a savage beast like Sidious. He uses as much force as is necessary. Then there's the emotional baggage of fighting his prized pupil and someone he loved.And I think it's mentioned somewhere(the junior novel) that he intended to capture, not kill. Coincidentally, that's also exactly what happened in Dark Rendezvous.
Yes, and as I said, that's only one depiction of the fight. Other versions contradict it.
I doubt Dooku would have fared any better in Maul's place.
He did against an equal/better of Sidious'.
Sure, why not?
For the same reason that you could take a snap-shot of Dooku kicking Anakin away whilst Choking Obi-Wan and deduce that he was stomping them.
I'm not sure why you're calling it "bullrushing". Maul is one of the most technically skilled duelists in history. Savage is bullrushing, not Maul.
You know what I mean - aggressive, front-up fighting.
Originally posted by Unbowed
That doesn't make him a defensive fighter, dummy.Even the most aggressive fighter defends, and even the most defensive fighter attacks.
A defensive fighter is someone like Obi-Wan. His whole philosophy centers on being the "eye of the storm", giving ground, prolonging the fight, being passive and allowing his opponent to expend his energy.
Dooku was thrown on the defensive, but it's not something he would do if he had any choice.
Originally posted by Solar Power
I think you make a good argument, but I disagree with the inherent contradiction you make in this post. Familiarity with Anakin isn't an advantage Dooku possesses in Legends because it was new information to him that Skywalker was a Djem So expert. I know you can, so correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Dooku not engage Skywalker since AotC in Legends? They had a close call in LoE, but they didn't engage in lightsaber combat.Dooku would have familiarity in canon, where TCW Maul exists, but if we're using canon fights then you can't use the argument that he has an encyclopedic knowledge of Ataru since he revealed that during Anakin and Obi Wan's ploy which is strictly a legends feat, as the ploy isn't portrayed in the film which is canon.
I'm referring to composite versions.
If we're basing it off Canon, Dooku's flat-out more skilled and actually physically stronger than Maul. For Legends, my points stand, except for familiarity with Anakin.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm referring to composite versions.If we're basing it off Canon, Dooku's flat-out more skilled and actually physically stronger than Maul.
Ah, a sticky situation then. Composite always confuses me because it always seems pick-and-choose with sources.
Are you referring to his performance against Yoda to make that claim? Can't think of anything else in new canon that overtly places Dooku above Maul.
Originally posted by SunRazer
[B]There's no basis for Qui-Gon's Ataru being better than Obi-Wan's, who we know to have both mastered Ataru and attained a general level of skill beyond that of Qui-Gon's.
Obi-Wan lacks what? I never said anything about Obi-Wan lacking knowledge on Ataru.
For Dooku:Dooku disdained other forms, but he knew them all. That' show he taught Grievous all the forms, and why in addition to "classical fighting techniques", he also knows a variety of untraditional combat forms from all over the galaxy:
But your point is noted.
You mean a severely hindered Anakin at his most ferocious. And in the novel, he does breach Obi-Wan's Force defenses, albeit Obi-Wan had yet to "let go" at that point.
You dismissed the novel in favor of the film when it suited you, now it's the other way around. Which is it?
Maul only overpowered Obi-Wan in sabers after mentally unhinging him with Dun Moch. Moreover, the fact that Obi-Wan and Anakin knew each other's fighting styles inside-out obviously drastically reduces any disparity between them. It's a circumstantial comparison between the two - one that Maul has no part in.
It's a fact that Anakin's a better duelist than RotS Obi-Wan.
And the facts are the facts. Even when his furnace heart was at its hottest, Anakin never simply picked Obi-Wan up with the Force and choked him, slammed him against the wall or pushed him to the effect that he was stunned and dropped his lightsaber. Why not?
And what if Maul had to use mental trickery to unbalance Obi-Wan? Why didn't Anakin do the same?
That's a mark in Maul's favor as far as I'm concerned.
I have. Nothing that compares to nearly breaking the bones of beings whose Force augmented durability supersedes that of the interiors of capital ships.
That's because Savage never reaches the levels of rage that he does in Witches of the Mist ever again. It's practically PIS in that episode. Maul's never shown that level of power.
He did against an equal/better of Sidious'.
Let me put it this way: say it's Sidious instead of Yoda in that hangar. Can Dooku last as long? Hell no.
For the same reason that you could take a snap-shot of Dooku kicking Anakin away whilst Choking Obi-Wan and deduce that he was stomping them.
I never claimed that Maul could beat Mace and Secura, but that brief interval where he fought evenly with them does go some way toward establishing that he has showings against a tier 9, which you claimed he lacked.
Originally posted by Unbowed
Sure there is. Obi-Wan did an about face after TPM and took up Soresu because Ataru failed both him and Qui-Gon. It became his main form and the one he spent more than a decade perfecting. He can no doubt employ Ataru, but there's no basis to claim he came close to Qui-Gon's level of mastery.
Originally posted by Unbowed
Sure there is. Obi-Wan did an about face after TPM and took up Soresu because Ataru failed both him and Qui-Gon. It became his main form and the one he spent more than a decade perfecting. He can no doubt employ Ataru, but there's no basis to claim he came close to Qui-Gon's level of mastery.
That depends on what level of mastery you think Qui-Gon has to begin with. We know Obi-Wan did attain mastery of Ataru and his general level of combative skill is beyond Qui-Gon's. That's the most we'll know. The rest is down to arbitrary judgment.
Also, Obi-Wan studied Soresu, but he didn't abandon Ataru. I don't believe Soresu became his primary form until some time in TCW.
I meant to say Maul. There's no proof Maul lacks "encyclopaedic knowledge" of Ataru given the stringent requirements needed to even attempt Juyo, given who Maul's master was, given he spent every waking moment perfecting his lightsaber technique.
That's an appeal to ignorance. "There's no proof this is wrong or missing, therefore it's true".
Prove that Maul has an encyclopedic knowledge of Ataru. Don't ask me to prove a negative.
That's just Dooku being Dooku. He thinks everyone and everything is beneath him.
I realize that. My point is that Dooku's disdain of other forms refers to practical usage, but he knows all the forms nevertheless.
You seem to be particularly inconsistent and dare I say hypocritical in cherry picking your sources.You dismissed the novel in favor of the film when it suited you, now it's the other way around. Which is it?
I didn't dismiss anything there. I just brought up the showing from the novel because it was worth mentioning. Nowhere did I invalidate the film.
More importantly, my policy is to consider all sources. I rarely invalidate sources - I just consider certain things to take precedence when they appear in more sources.
So what? These are not automatons fighting. The mental component is very important. I don't see why you're dismissing it.
Again, I didn't dismiss anything. I'm saying that on a basis of physical ability, which is what we were comparing, Maul is only equal to TCW Obi-Wan, not better.
I doubt Maul would be able to bring successful Dun Moch to bear here anyway. He doesn't know Anakin, and Obi-Wan seems to have gotten over Qui-Gon's death by now, which is why the taunt in Revenge was a one-time thing. He didn't manage to do it again in Revival, when he needed it.
And the facts are the facts. Even when his furnace heart was at its hottest, Anakin never simply picked Obi-Wan up with the Force and choked him, slammed him against the wall or pushed him to the effect that he was stunned and dropped his lightsaber. Why not?
And what if Maul had to use mental trickery to unbalance Obi-Wan? Why didn't Anakin do the same?That's a mark in Maul's favor as far as I'm concerned.
Anakin was "between worlds" and "vulnerable". He was not at his best there, and his powers were hindered. Which is also why Anakin didn't use Dun Moch against Obi-Wan. He was only half-bringing himself to kill Obi-Wan. I'm sure you've read Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader.
That's the thing. Maul does. Read Lockdown. And Maul did all he did without using the Force.
I have read Lockdown, and nowhere does Maul exhibit strength capable of breaking the bones of beings far more durable that capital ship interiors. If you disagree, post the feat in question.
More importantly, if we do take the RotS novel, then the force of Anakin's blows exhausted Dooku even moreso than Yoda's, a testament to Anakin's own Force-augmented strength. Need I remind you that Yoda stalemated Sidious in bladelocks, with Sidious being able to ward off the collective strength of Maul/Savage and overpower even an enraged Maul in a saberlock?
You're grasping at straws. I repeat, Savage was never implied to be in the same league as Darth Maul. Not by a long shot.
Repeating yourself ad nauseam doesn't make your point more credible. If anything, that's grasping at straws.
Show me where Maul has ever shown the power to send Dooku flying into a wall. Show me where Maul sends Ventress flying just through blade contact (in Revenge, she clashed blades with him just fine). Show me where Maul ever drives back Obi-Wan and Anakin together with the duo's attacks utterly failing against him (he stalemates Obi-Wan alone in Revival, and Obi-Wan gets hits on him in Revenge). Show me where Maul sends Obi-Wan and Anakin flying with TK.
Savage is never again depicted to be in the same league as his enraged self in Witches of the Mist, and not by a long shot either. So it doesn't matter where or not he's shown to be in the same league as Maul (they only make appearances together after Witches of the Mist). So your comparison with Anakin doesn't work. Anakin's performance was only poor against PIS!Savage, not regular Savage.
He didn't though. Even if we assume Yoda was going all out, judging by his exhausted state in the film and the fact that he had to distract Yoda to save his hide, my interpretation is far more plausible than yours.
That only proves that Dooku lost, which is obvious. None of this contradicts the notion that Dooku held his own in actual combat. Did he get desperate? Did he tire? Did he lose? Yes. But he also held his own. And that's a fact; reiterated by more than one supplementary source. You're going to have to do better than make unsubstantiated claims if you want to discredit the showing.
Let me put it this way: say it's Sidious instead of Yoda in that hangar. Can Dooku last as long? Hell no.
What a convincing argument.
And I would be completely justified. He was stomping them [i]at that time[i/].
Indeed. However, I'm not looking for momentary advantages. I'm looking at entire fights.
I never claimed that Maul could beat Mace and Secura, but that brief interval where he fought evenly with them does go some way toward establishing that he has showings against a tier 9, which you claimed he lacked.
That's not a showing of prolonged contention against tier 9's as with Dooku vs Yoda, who's also better than Mace. That's a showing of momentary advantage. The fight's incredibly short.
Originally posted by Unbowed
That doesn't make him a defensive fighter, dummy.Even the most aggressive fighter defends, and even the most defensive fighter attacks.
A defensive fighter is someone like Obi-Wan. His whole philosophy centers on being the "eye of the storm", giving ground, prolonging the fight, being passive and allowing his opponent to expend his energy.
Dooku was thrown on the defensive, but it's not something he would do if he had any choice.
Except Dooku does fight defensively. Like a lot. It's an integral part of Makashi like Kurk has pointed out.
What's Dooku's knowledge of Ataru got to do with anything? Kenobi only ever employed it to trick him. 😬
Anyway without the Count's mastery over footwork, positioning and leverage, or rather his talent as a fencer, no I don't think Maul could handle him in the way he did. Whether he is an expert on Ataru or not however is irrelevant to that question.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
What's Dooku's knowledge of Ataru got to do with anything? Kenobi only ever employed it to trick him. 😬
Beni's completely right here. He ATTEMPTED to use his knowledge of Ataru to take advantages of Kenobi but as soon as he did that Obi Wan switched to Soresu. It's irrelevant.