Originally posted by SunRazer
He was the best at planning, lol. When Yoda confronted him unexpectedly, Palpatine tried to run away at first.
In the instance you highlighted, Palpatine running away was the most logical course of action. 👆
He had the entire galaxy under his rule - not worth risking it in battle against an opponent of equal ability. 😬
Also, in the film, you can clearly see that Palpatine's Lightning wasn't hitting or even coming close to Vader when he was flying down the shaft.
I personally don't know how the text could claim that Palpatine was trying to strike Vader out of anger as he fell down the shaft. The Emperor was clearly screaming as he plummeted to his doom and the Lightning wasn't traveling very far from his fingertips either.
I prefer the Legends depiction which states that Palpatine never had a chance to actually direct his Lightning; when Vader lifted him up, it just arced between the two of them and shocked them both. Sidious was just driven by the dark side to keep firing Lightning to try and destroy Vader (painfully) before Vader could throw him over the edge, which of course, he failed in doing due to Vader's durability and a possible case of Oneness.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
More importantly, he was the best at turning any situation to his advantage.In the instance you highlighted, Palpatine running away was the most logical course of action. 👆
He had the entire galaxy under his rule - not worth risking it in battle against an opponent of equal ability. 😬
I agree that it was a logical course of action, but that's hardly turning the situation to his advantage. In any case, this was even more of a snap decision than that one - this one was based purely on instinct, and his instincts, which were controlled by the dark side, directed him to attack Vader instead of saving his own skin.
Originally posted by SunRazer
I agree that it was a logical course of action, but that's hardly turning the situation to his advantage. In any case, this was even more of a snap decision than that one - this one was based purely on instinct, and his instincts, which were controlled by the dark side, directed him to attack Vader instead of saving his own skin.
No shit. Palpatine lost control over everything in the end - like I said. 👆
Suggesting Palpatine is shit in-the-moment has to be the most outrageous statement you ever claimed though. 😉
The text that Zenwolf posted clearly states that the Emperor might've saved himself with his powers at that moment, but chose instead to attack Vader. There was an alternative - he just didn't/couldn't see it because he was so consumed by the dark side. It's the same as him not sensing the conflict in Vader beforehand since he was so sure of the fact that he owned Vader and that that could never change.
And by in the moment, I meant moments like these (although really, he wouldn't be desperate and making shit decisions in such a scenario)? Even in the Yoda one, he had some time to think.
I don't even think you know what you're trying to argue here.
I agree that Palpatine lost control - I'm arguing over why he lost control.
You suggest that Palpatine lost control and failed to assess the alternatives between he's unable to think in-the-moment, but that's actually the most absurd thing you ever stated in your entire career. Palpatine is the best at thinking in the moment. His failure to recognize the various circumstances leading up to his death is not common routine, but rather his ultimate undoing in which his arrogance *finally* got the better of him and the dark side consumed him rather than the other way around (as is the fate of all who use the dark side).
In the end, Palpatine lost control over the dark side. 👆
I didn't say that he's unable to think in the moment - you completely misquoted what I said (considering you decided to quote a snippet of my post instead of putting it in context). I said he excelled at planning, which he did, but not at making decisions in the heat of things. And that's correct, because the entire concept of Palpatine's character is that he has everything planned up. All of his successes in Star Wars are planned.
When things fail or come up without warning, he either just tries to run away (like against Yoda) so he'll get a chance to do things again later, or he gets angry (like against Luke).
Against Vader, it was more of the latter case, but as you said, the dark side consumed him and he lost control over his powers.
Again, quoting snippets out of context.
He doesn't excel at making decisions in the heat of things - he excels at planned decisions. That's his whole shtick as a character. The fact that he doesn't excel at snap decisions doesn't mean he's shit at them - just that it's not his strength, which is planning.
Obviously this was a one-off instance, I'm just indicating why it makes sense given Palpatine's archetypal status as the puppet master.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Again, quoting snippets out of context.He doesn't excel at making decisions in the heat of things - he excels at planned decisions. That's his whole shtick as a character. The fact that he doesn't excel at snap decisions doesn't mean he's shit at them - just that it's not his strength, which is planning.
And I disagree with it completely and utterly in every way possible - and then some more.
You're suggesting that his snap decisions are better than his planned ones, or at least equal. That's way more ridiculous than what I said, lol.
Besides, sources that depict Palpatine's thoughts, such as the RotS junior novelization, have him trying to suppress himself from making impulsive decisions because he knows those can stuff him up.
Ah, I see why my message came across poorly. I used the term "snap decisions" which made it seem like all decisions that needed to be made quickly - when I meant "impulsive decisions", as in decisions that are made in literal split-seconds and purely on gut instinct (the Yoda decision actually had some thought). I couldn't think of the word earlier.
And yes, that's exactly what you were suggesting. I never said that Palpatine was bad at them, just that he wasn't as good as with planned decisions, and you vehemently disagreed with that. Either you think his impulsive decisions are better than his planned ones, or you actually agree with me.
Let's clarify my stance - Palpatine is good at assuming the advantage and regaining it if he loses it in situations, but he's not as good at that as he is at planning events over long periods of time so that they'll transpire immaculately.
Originally posted by SunRazer
He was the best at planning, lol. When Yoda confronted him unexpectedly, Palpatine tried to run away at first.In any case, this all seems to support the idea that Palpatine was unleashing everything on Vader but Vader was durable enough to survive the Lightning - or at least, just long enough to throw Palpatine overboard.
Vader's force barriers*
There's hardly any except in his younger years - that's the point. Palpatine's foresight is good enough for him to predict everything - except Luke's defiance and Vader's betrayal.
Anyways, he lost control because of an impulsive decision, which was to keep attacking Vader. He could've relented and saved himself, but he didn't.
Now, you can say that this impulsive decision was facilitated or even caused by the dark side's hold on him, which is fine. That's what I believe, as well.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Is that ever stated? Sources seem to suggest that Vader just willed his way through the barrage.
Given Sidious's lightning is capable of disintegrating at the very least ( heck Starkiller's is capable of that and much much more and Sidious is more powerful ) it's the only logical solution.
Yeah, I have that in my RT. It's unlikely to refer to power or anything, though, since it mentions respect right before the quote.
Also, since people here to take Lucas and Gillard's words, do they also take Producer Rick McCallum? I'm asking since McCallum claims that Sidious is even more powerful than the Jedi, which would include Yoda.