TCW Maul vs. Darth Nihilus (Force battle)

@Sunrazer

The Rule of Two has always been an idea, lol.

Bane does meet Zannah at the end of PoD/beginning of RoT, and Zannah surpassing her Master isn't an instance of Bane himself changing the Sith Order. Bane taking Zannah as an apprentice, as it happens at the end of PoD, is "getting the new Order up and running".

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that "change" isn't something that necessarily happens in an instant. Bane's eradication and replacement of the old Sith is something that happened over the course of three novels, not at any one time, which is why I think it makes little sense to ascribe one moment in time where "everything changed forever".

I'm talking about Bane giving Kaan the Thought Bomb to destroy the Brotherhood, which allows him to establish the Banite Order.

After all, does the quote not say that he used the knowledge and power he gained to change the Sith forever? How is Zannah killing Bane an instance of Bane using his knowledge and power to change the Sith forever?

Bane killing all the other Sith in the galaxy is only a prerequisite for this change, because if he didn't kill them his system would be fundamentally flawed.

Not to mention the word "change" instantly eliminates Zannah offing Bane as the instance in question. Zannah killing Bane cements the Rule of Two and the Banite Sith Order - it doesn't change the Sith Order. The final events of PoD change the Sith by destroying an Empire-based system and instating an order where there are only two Sith. That's the change.

Who cares? It's not as if DoE Bane being the more masterful in the dark side than Vitiate, Kun or the Ancient Sith is any more believable when he doesn't even know Sith sorcery. 😬

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Who cares? It's not as if DoE Bane being the more masterful in the dark side than Vitiate, Kun or the Ancient Sith is any more believable when he doesn't even know Sith sorcery. 😬

Run with it you p*ssy

In what, lifting rocks and sparkle hands?

Nah. 🙂

Yes. 🙂

❌

Knowledge of telekinetic and Force lighting techniques could be surmised in two pages of A4, they are basic and widely practiced by even the lowliest of acolytes. Whereas the vast majority of Sith techniques beyond that are encompassed in a field in which Bane had no understanding or ability in, and advanced Force techniques like creating a death field 10 meters in radius Bane struggled with. The techniques he details in the Book of Sith are also pretty basic and rubbish. 🙂

Could you list this vast majority of Sith techniques which are covered under the banner of sorcery?

Here is the full page. It does indeed seem like it is referring to PoD Bane given the context.

http://static3.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5225377-3.jpg

Originally posted by ILS
Could you list this vast majority of Sith techniques which are covered under the banner of sorcery?

Originally posted by ILS
@Sunrazer
And? An idea alone doesn't "change the Sith Order forever".

It does if it's revolutionary and is put into practice. That's kind of what the ending of PoD was about.

The criteria for the quote is Bane having changed the Sith Order "forever". I don't consider him just having found Zannah to be a permanent change. He still needs to train her, indoctrinate her into the RoT and then have her surpass him in order to get the loop going. Until he does that, all he has done is take a Sith apprentice, something that has been done countless times.

He's started the Rule of Two, which is unprecedented. And it's not just him taking Zannah but destroying the Brotherhood with the Thought Bomb.

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that "change" isn't something that necessarily happens in an instant. Bane's eradication and replacement of the old Sith is something that happened over the course of three novels, not at any one time, which is why I think it makes little sense to ascribe one moment in time where "everything changed forever".

Bane eradicated the Sith in just one novel, PoD. He divested himself of any allegiance to the Brotherhood, and as the sole surviving member of the Sith, that meant the Brotherhood was no more. Bane taking Zannah was the moment that the Order of the Sith Lords began.

If Zannah ended up failing to kill Bane, then that would represent the failure of the Order of the Sith Lords, not a failure to change from the ways of the Brotherhood.

Except he hasn't established anything yet. All he has done is killed the other Sith; he hasn't done anything different from them yet, he hasn't changed the way the Sith operate.
Because without Bane's knowledge and power, Zannah would never have been in a position to carry on the RoT. She is carrying out Bane's will by killing and surpassing him. And when she does that, she starts the chain of apprentice killing master; and that is the core difference between Bane's Sith Order and the old ones. There can only be two at any given time. That is how he "changed" the Sith.

Zannah killing Bane is not a change that Bane effected with his knowledge of Sith techniques, lol, no matter how you try to spin it.

And sure he changed the way the Sith operates by the end of PoD. The Empire-based system of the old order was vanquished, with use of his knowledge of Sith techniques (Thought Bomb), and the new Order, the Rule of Two, began.

How did Bane's knowledge of Sith techniques and powers allow Zannah to kill him?

Bane killing all the other Sith in the galaxy is only a prerequisite for this change, because if he didn't kill them his system would be fundamentally flawed.
Zannah conspiring to learn everything Bane knows, kill him, then take on her own apprentice and do the same thing again, is how the Sith have changed. Bane killing lots of Sith isn't a change in Sith doctrine or behaviour. It's something Sith do quite a lot, albeit not on this scale.

There's no Sith that seeks the destruction of the Sith Order. They only seek the deaths of rivals - threats to their power. Bane was eradicating the Brotherhood in order to renew the Sith, which is an unprecedented act that's only to be carried out by the Sith'ari. Zannah killing him doesn't cause any change, as I said - it cements an Order that already existed. Bane revolutionized the Order, so it's clear that the change is his destruction of the old Order and the construction of the new.

Also, I asked this question a long time ago but didn't get a conclusive answer - when was the article published? Because from what I can tell of the single scan, it's only in reference to Bane of the Sith, not the Darth Bane Trilogy. Bane of the Sith only covers up to the beginning of RoT. It certainly doesn't cover up to Zannah killing Bane. Which, again, would support my point.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Who cares? It's not as if DoE Bane being the more masterful in the dark side than Vitiate, Kun or the Ancient Sith is any more believable when he doesn't even know Sith sorcery. 😬

It is pretty hard to believe that someone who requires a nexus for a death field would be more powerful than Vitiate, Kun, Nihilus, etc.

You debate philosophies which are a totally mess.
RoT it's a political shitty doctrine.

That had nothing to do with our discussion...

Rule of Two sucks at realizing your 'full potential'(in the Force) that's all. :-)