Can RotS Palpatine speedblitz Darth Plagueis?

Originally posted by MythLord
The whole "fighting forever" is just another example of Matthew's hyperbolic writting. And the entire fight was just Mace and Sidious redirecting Dark Side energy at each other, so in theory they could keep channeling that indefinitely; nothing of the sort occurs in the Maul fight.

Of course it's hyperbole. Not sure how that defeats my point, though, since it obviously still implies he could've fought for a really long time.

The dark side energy that was being redirected was all coming from Sidious. It's not like he gained some additional boost from his own finite pool of energy, lol.

Additionally, your argument points to Sidious as of RotS being astronomically greater than TPM Sidious, so comparing their respective stamina is rather contradictory to begin with.

Except my argument never had anything to do with stamina, but speed, so no, it's not contradictory.

Originally posted by ILS
This thread simultaneously made me erect and gave me an aneurysm.

I got you horny. I'm flattered.

But anyway, what do you disagree with?

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Ok I'm out of work. So lemme tell you how this argument fails.

You're saying that Sheev can blitz a Plagueis Tier opponent. Firstly, you have to prove that Maul is close to Plagueis in every way. Which you haven't. FYI, I hate Plagueis, he's overrated, but even I gotta admit that calling Maul an equal to Plagueis is reaching.

Saying he even pushed Sheev back is baffling too. Tbfh

I only have to proof they're comparable in speed, not in every way, lol.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
so since fisto didn't get outright blitzed by sidious, he's faster than plagueis?

He had Windu as a distraction.

Originally posted by Geistalt
The fact that Sidious can gradually beat Maul and Opress at once isn't adequate grounds to say he can speedblitz Darth Plagueis.

That isn't what I said at all, lmao.

Originally posted by Azronger
Fair enough on Mace not pushing Sidious as hard as Maul, but that wasn't the point. You said that Sidious didn't tire because the Kursid were fodder. Mace is far from fodder, yet he could've fought for a really, really long time without exhaustion setting in. That proves your claim wrong.

He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But--

Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

On the other hand despite only toying around, Sidious is visibly fatigued after a minute or so of fighting against the Maul brothers.

Which proves your claim wrong. 🙂

According to whom? As I said, the "had only begun to tap into his reserves" is in regards to Sidious' stamina. It would be perfectly accurate to say Sidious had only begun to tap into his reserves during the conclusion of the Mace fight, even though Mace legitimately pressed him pretty hard. The same applies to the Maul fight.

Stamina is essentially the amount of power or energy you can expend before exhaustion, and therefore is entirely relative the energy demanded by the task at hand, or rather the power and threat of your opponent.

And because stamina and power are relative, to be pressed hard by your opponent is to draw deeply on your reserves. Just as you would have to draw deeply on your own "reserves" to lift a taxing weight or resist a pressing force. Reserves in those contexts, simply being another word for strength or power.

Yeah, and there's no evidence Sidious didn't draw deeply on the Force, so whether Sidious allowed Maul to win or not is unknown.

Also, you failed to address the "barely deflected them all part", which should be a pretty conclusive statement. If you're holding back a gargantuan amount, you don't "barely" succeed at something; you pass with flying colors. The statement only makes sense if Sidious was going all-out.

This is again, simple logic.

Not sure what you're talking about here. He appeared to vanish before Maul even got his rage amp, so that's irrelevant.

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred.

Originally posted by Azronger
Of course it's hyperbole. Not sure how that defeats my point, though, since it obviously still implies he could've fought for a really long time.

Sure, a really long time... How long, though? That could just be hours. It's a vague, unquantifiable quote.

Originally posted by Azronger
The dark side energy that was being redirected was all coming from Sidious. It's not like he gained some additional boost from his own finite pool of energy, lol.

The quote outright says he's part of the superconducting loop.

Originally posted by Azronger
Except my argument never had anything to do with stamina, but speed, so no, it's not contradictory.

Stamina and speed are equally influenced by Force augmentation, so they are connected. You're drawing on your reserves to move as fast as you are, your reserves are literally feeding your stamina. So it is contradictory.

Originally posted by Zenwolf

But there is certain glaring inconsistencies with trying to put TCW in the Legends bracket, even moreso now that it's Canon, which is why I just treat it as the latter except for very, very selective things which actually can fit within Legends and aren't much of a stretch.

That's what I meant.

Just terrible.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I defer to Myth's point in this regard, the novelisation makes it clear that the reason Palpatine would not fatigue was because of the superconducting loop. To highlight the point😖idious became part of a circuit, the energy flowing out of him passing through Windu to flow back in, hence the absence of fatigue.

Alright, fair enough. I'll stop using this point to argue Sidious' stamina from now on.

On the other hand despite only toying around, Sidious is visibly fatigued after a minute or so of fighting against the Maul brothers.

And the reason he was fatigued was because he was messing around, not drawing on the Force very deeply. Given that he doesn't let out a single sigh/moan/whatever after that, I'm inclined to believe he simply washed away his exhaustion with the Force, like Dooku did in RotS:

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

If Sidious had truly been fatigued, then there'd have been more panting and not just a single sigh.

According to simple logic. 😬

Stamina is essentially the amount of power or energy you can expend before exhaustion, and therefore is entirely relative the energy demanded by the task at hand, or rather the power and threat of your opponent.

And because stamina and power are relative, to be pressed hard by your opponent is to draw deeply on your reserves. Just as you would have to draw deeply on your own "reserves" to lift a taxing weight or resist a pressing force. Reserves in those contexts, simply being another word for strength or power.

Yes, this does make sense for normal humans who have no Force to draw upon. But Force users can simply restore all of their stamina on the fly, like Dooku did in the example above. He was drawing very deeply on the Force to not get crushed by Anakin's meteor strike-esque blows, to the point where each strike "aged him a decade". Yet even a momentary break allowed Dooku to restore all of his stamina with absolutely no issue. The junior novel even outright dismisses the possibility of Anakin outlasting Dooku:

He's old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going for as long as he needed.

Obviously there is a limit to how many times Force users can replenish their stamina, but I hope you get my point: Force users' power/strength isn't relative to their stamina. It would be perfectly accurate to say Dooku had only begun to tap into his reserves at the conclusion of his fight with Anakin, despite being pressed harder than he'd ever been.

I believe this to be the case with Sidious and his fight Maul, as well, for I do believe Sidious was legitimately pressed (I'll elaborate down below), yet Maul noted he had only begun tapping into his reserves, which means he wasn't tired and could keep going for much longer.

No you don't, because you are holding back a gargantuan amount. Hence why its a common trope for the hero to get trashed when they curb their powers against a serious and lethal opponent, or why it would be entirely unwise for a talented street fighter to hold back in a fight against a lethal killer.

This is again, simple logic.

Your examples only make sense if the fighters are in the same speed class. If I, for example, were twice as fast as a normal human in literally every aspect of life, and I wanted to live my life doing everything twice as fast as a regural human, then in order for me to function normally and remain in control of my actions, my sense of perception would have to be twice as fast as well. What I mean by this is that I would percieve everything in slow motion. For example, a car going 50 km/h would be percieved as going 25 km/h by me.

To better illustrate my point, let's look at Quicksilver from X-men: Days of the Future Past and Apocalypse: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1NnyVc8r2SM and https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4LIcOFvWqjk

The above scenes are from Quicksilver's perspective and show the world around him in slow motion. Even bullets are so slow to him that it would be impossible for him to "barely" dodge them. He can make it look like he has difficulty doing so from the perspective of normal people, or that he barely managed to evade in time, but in reality it's as easy to him as breathing. Quicksilver isn't going to "barely" dodge bullets, it's an impossibility for him.

In a similar sense, Sidious is faster than an unamped Maul by an unholy amount. So he'd logically be also perceiving Maul's lightsaber attacks in slow motion, making it impossible for him to be "barely" able to deflect them. Sure, he could feign weakness, but the DS sourcebook mentions no such thing. The DS sourcebook's statement only makes sense if the enraged Maul was truly matching Sidious' speed and making him work for it.

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred.

Did you just intentionally leave out the very next sentence?

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating.

Originally posted by Azronger
He had Windu as a distraction.

lol

Originally posted by Azronger
And the reason he was fatigued was because he was messing around, not drawing on the Force very deeply. Given that he doesn't let out a single sigh/moan/whatever after that, I'm inclined to believe he simply washed away his exhaustion with the Force, like Dooku did in RotS:

He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.

If Sidious had truly been fatigued, then there'd have been more panting and not just a single sigh.

Yes, this does make sense for normal humans who have no Force to draw upon. But Force users can simply restore all of their stamina on the fly, like Dooku did in the example above. He was drawing very deeply on the Force to not get crushed by Anakin's meteor strike-esque blows, to the point where each strike "aged him a decade". Yet even a momentary break allowed Dooku to restore all of his stamina with absolutely no issue. The junior novel even outright dismisses the possibility of Anakin outlasting Dooku:

He's old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going for as long as he needed.

Obviously there is a limit to how many times Force users can replenish their stamina, but I hope you get my point: Force users' power/strength isn't relative to their stamina. It would be perfectly accurate to say Dooku had only begun to tap into his reserves at the conclusion of his fight with Anakin, despite being pressed harder than he'd ever been.

I believe this to be the case with Sidious and his fight Maul, as well, for I do believe Sidious was legitimately pressed (I'll elaborate down below), yet Maul noted he had only begun tapping into his reserves, which means he wasn't tired and could keep going for much longer.

Which makes me inclined to believe this is a special power taught to him by Sidious.

Point being that Dooku was fatigued, and did draw deeply on his reserves (as he is in fact described to in the fight), to the point of utter depletion, but had a trump card by which he could circumvent that.

Naturally Sidious should have this power too, but likewise he should only consider using it once his personal reserves were exhausted.

Your examples only make sense if the fighters are in the same speed class. If I, for example, were twice as fast as a normal human in literally every aspect of life, and I wanted to live my life doing everything twice as fast as a regural human, then in order for me to function normally and remain in control of my actions, my sense of perception would have to be twice as fast as well. What I mean by this is that I would percieve everything in slow motion. For example, a car going 50 km/h would be percieved as going 25 km/h by me.

To better illustrate my point, let's look at Quicksilver from X-men: Days of the Future Past and Apocalypse: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1NnyVc8r2SM and https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4LIcOFvWqjk

The above scenes are from Quicksilver's perspective and show the world around him in slow motion. Even bullets are so slow to him that it would be impossible for him to "barely" dodge them. He can make it look like he has difficulty doing so from the perspective of normal people, or that he barely managed to evade in time, but in reality it's as easy to him as breathing. Quicksilver isn't going to "barely" dodge bullets, it's an impossibility for him.

In a similar sense, Sidious is faster than an unamped Maul by an unholy amount. So he'd logically be also perceiving Maul's lightsaber attacks in slow motion, making it impossible for him to be "barely" able to deflect them. Sure, he could feign weakness, but the DS sourcebook mentions no such thing. The DS sourcebook's statement only makes sense if the enraged Maul was truly matching Sidious' speed and making him work for it.

He called upon the Force, gathering it to himself and wrapping himself within it. He breathed it in and held it whirling inside his heart, clenching down upon it until he could feel the spin of the galaxy around him.

Until he became the axis of the Universe. This was the real power of the dark side, the power he had suspected even as a boy, had sought through his long life until Darth Sidious had shown him that it had been his all along. The dark side didn't bring him to the center of the universe. It made him the center.

He drew power into his innermost being until the Force itself existed only to serve his will.

Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku's perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision.

Did you just intentionally leave out the very next sentence?

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Fair, but the point is that if Palpatine was struggling in this instance, he should have shown signs of fatigue. Unless he was in fact holding back and could easily wash it all away.

Um, he was holding back a tremendous amount.

That's Dooku, and I'm not inclined to believe its normal for Force sensitives at all, since its replicated nowhere. When a Force user gets exhausted, they remain so, they don't click their fingers and heal to full.

Which makes me inclined to believe this is a special power taught to him by Sidious.

Point being that Dooku was fatigued, and did draw deeply on his reserves (as he is in fact described to in the fight), to the point of utter depletion, but had a trump card by which he could circumvent that.

Naturally Sidious should have this power too, but likewise he should only consider using it once his personal reserves were exhausted.

Okay, fair enough.

Terrible example I'm afraid, this is not X-Men, and Sidious is not Quicksilver. He does not see the world in slow motion. Instead a Force wielders powers and perceptions are only as enhanced as they make them to be. For example when Dooku immerses himself in the Force in preparation for combat, his perceptions are altered as well:

So no, if Sidious wasn't fully immersed in the Force he simply wouldn't be as fast, as strong, as perceptive etc. and his disadvantage against Maul would be very real.

Who's to say Sidious wasn't fully immersed in the Force? He was in a combat situation, just like Dooku. And don't tell me it was because Maul was fodder. Dooku considered Anakin and Obi-Wan to be fodder as well; the text makes it very clear.

And Sidious doesn't have to be Quicksilver, nor does Star Wars have to be X-men. It was simply a visual illustration of my point; pictures tell more than a thousand words, as the old saying goes, isn't that right?

The faster you move, the slower time appears to flow around you. Sidious is moving faster than Maul can perceive. Therefore, from Sidious' perspective, Maul would appear to be standing still or close to it. As I have said many times, it would be impossible for him to "barely" be able to deflect his blows if he could blitz Maul any time he wanted. The only reasonable explanation for it is that Maul was legitimately pressing Sidious.

Because it happens next yes, as in after, not seeing any reason to believe his strength had already evaporated before that.

No, it was already happening. You would have a point if the text said something along the lines of "his strength was beginning to evaporate", but instead it says "his strength was evaporating", as in it already was. This should be rather obvious from the previous sentence where Maul's vision is blurring.

I also wonder how you concluded "speedblitz" from "manuevering like a liquid shadow".

Originally posted by Azronger
Um, he was holding back a tremendous amount.

Who's to say Sidious wasn't fully immersed in the Force? He was in a combat situation, just like Dooku. And don't tell me it was because Maul was fodder. Dooku considered Anakin and Obi-Wan to be fodder as well; the text makes it very clear.

And Sidious doesn't have to be Quicksilver, nor does Star Wars have to be X-men. It was simply a visual illustration of my point; pictures tell more than a thousand words, as the old saying goes, isn't that right?

The faster you move, the slower time appears to flow around you. Sidious is moving faster than Maul can perceive. Therefore, from Sidious' perspective, Maul would appear to be standing still or close to it. As I have said many times, it would be impossible for him to "barely" be able to deflect his blows if he could blitz Maul any time he wanted. The only reasonable explanation for it is that Maul was legitimately pressing Sidious.

No, it was already happening. You would have a point if the text said something along the lines of "his strength was beginning to evaporate", but instead it says "his strength was evaporating", as in it already was. This should be rather obvious from the previous sentence where Maul's vision is blurring.

"You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"

"Yes," Maul grunted.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" Maul screamed through clenched teeth.

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice.

I also wonder how you concluded "speedblitz" from "manuevering like a liquid shadow".

as qui gon's cotention with maul indicates, qui gon could blitz plagueis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4Mi-z7gHXM

Didn't know where to put this, so I'll do it here.

Ian says Palpatine is the fastest in the universe around 21:30.

He's said similiar in other interviews, though.

---

Around 22:05, Ian says Palpatine fights at the speed of light / sound.

"Speed of light, if not sound" lol

Good find nevertheless.

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Except TCW was part of the EU before the Disney split, so that's bullshit.

Well even before they still retconned a lot. As far as I'm concerned they basically were doing their own thing.

🤣