Also this notion that tech doesn't advance has really gotta stop. It does, get over it, do research.
Example, the Companion2000 Datapad was old and could only store 5 million data units.
Meanwhile modern datapads can have over 20 million data units coupled with the latest artifical intelligence data analysis sub-routines. (Which hey the Companion2000 didn't have either!)
I also don't see in the Old Republic, star cruisers having miniature star level reactors powering their ships like later ships such as the ISD.
Nor do I see the galactic public in the OR using full scale planetary supercomputers such as the BRTs in their cities, the only thing close would be the GO-T0s yet it's noted they had limited planetary networks. The BRTs could be everywhere across the planet meanwhile, hooked into everything.
Let's see...oh the 2-1B surgical droid it's behavioral circuity was a breakthrough in medical droids, it having state of the art artificial intelligence and being the most efficient medical droid in the galaxy.
If there were no advances in technology, even the littlest bit, then none of what above would ever come through. So there are advances and people need to realize this and these are just a few examples.
They just aren't shoved in your faces, you have to actually read.
I shouldn't even need to mention military technology, that's clearly evident.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Also this notion that tech doesn't advance has really gotta stop. It does, get over it, do research.Example, the Companion2000 Datapad was old and could only store 5 million data units.
Meanwhile modern datapads can have over 20 million data units coupled with the latest artifical intelligence data analysis sub-routines. (Which hey the Companion2000 didn't have either!)
I also don't see in the Old Republic, star cruisers having miniature star level reactors powering their ships like later ships such as the ISD.
Nor do I see the galactic public in the OR using full scale planetary supercomputers such as the BRTs in their cities, the only thing close would be the GO-T0s yet it's noted they had limited planetary networks. The BRTs could be everywhere across the planet meanwhile, hooked into everything.
Let's see...oh the 2-1B surgical droid it's behavioral circuity was a breakthrough in medical droids, it having state of the art artificial intelligence and being the most efficient medical droid in the galaxy.
If there were no advances in technology, even the littlest bit, then none of what above would ever come through. So there are advances and people need to realize this and these are just a few examples.
They just aren't shoved in your faces, you have to actually read.
I shouldn't even need to mention military technology, that's clearly evident.
On the other hand, a much ancient civilization could literally create or realign solar systems:
Although the Republic has existed for millennia, there is evidence to suggest that long before its founding, a highly advanced race ruled the galaxy. Referred to as the “Architects” or “Celestials” by scholars, these beings possessed remarkable technology capable of constructing or realigning solar systems. The Corellia system, for example, appears to have been artificially constructed. These claims would seem extraordinary, but many of the Architects’ machines survived the ages. The Vultar system was home to an immense “Cosmic Turbine” that could only have been Architect technology, before misuse destroyed both the turbine and the Vultar system itself. The fabled Centerpoint Station is thought to be an Architect installation, though many species have claimed it as the work of their own people. In addition to their engineering marvels, it is believed that the Architects seeded the Core Worlds with life–particularly humans–though some attribute this to the Rakata’s Infinite Empire. Despite the proof of their achievements, however, there is little evidence to suggest where the Architects came from or what eventually became of them.
Taken from Galactic History 01: The Architects
So there's that.
Now, let us come down to developments at micro level. Consider the example of Gravestone starship and its famed omnicannon; an ancient vessel that could wipe-out an entire fleet of starships (ancient or modern) in a battle. So technological advancements led to improvement in design, functionality, firepower and performance of starships throughout the ages but Gravestone and Harrower-class starships appear to challenge this roadmap of evolution.
Technological advancements (do) occur in Star Wars with passage of time at micro level (you provided some examples) but do they translate into something significant at macro level very often or something is amiss? An observation is that technological advancements have stagnated in some areas due to lack of need or room for further progress in them (e.g. Hyperspace travelling). Another observation is that wars hampered technological advancements to a significant degree; many a top-secret scientific programs were sabotaged or neutralized through covert operations and/or assassination of personnel involved before they could become mainstream.
Difference in the progress of worlds is also a factor: some worlds were lightyears ahead of others in the matters of development and scientific accomplishments. So Companion2000 Datapad might be state-of-the-art in one planet but outdated in another. Look at this one for example: http://s1177.photobucket.com/user/Visceri10/media/Screenshot_2012-01-10_01_47_56_938285.jpg.html
You can also take a look at developments during the Great Galactic War. The reconstituted ancient Sith Empire committed starships and weapon systems to this conflict that were much more advanced than similar assets of the Old Republic. However, the Old Republic was much bigger in size and had too much resources at its disposal to throw at the Sith Empire to slow down its advances. Now add Sith infighting to the equation and the end-result was a stalemate in the long-term.
So what was my original argument? That advanced starships are not going to make significant difference on their own. Qualitative matters such as discipline, planning, experience, motivation and tactics will collectively decide the outcome of the war.
Now, you would say that what was so special about Harrower-class starships? They were found to be equipped with a hypermatter reactor (standard package), technologies that could be used to infiltrate information systems of an hostile target and wipe them clean (standard package), Adegan Crystal stealth system (optional), bionic implants to grant a captain seamless control over the vessel (optional), class 1 or class 0.5 hyperdrive and Infinite Engine (a miniature Star Forge?) for creating parts of the starship and droids to replace lost or damaged ones. Additionally, a huge quality of Harrower-class starship was its design that was really good for combat operations and offered great room for customization.
You mentioned miniature star level reactors in your argument; ever wondered how a single Harrower-class starship could be converted into a superweapon that could one-shot an entire enemy fleet in space and even a planet. The energy output needed to turn a planet into a molten wasteland with a single shot would fall in the range of quadrillions of megatons. Let that sink in.
Also, ever seen a starship that could track and eliminate targets in hyperspace? Harrower-class variant named Gauntlet was capable of doing just that. I don't recall any other starship with similar capability.
Heck, I would consider Sun Razer as the crown achievement of the Sith Empire in question; call it Star Forge 2.0 or a successful replication of it. Something that even the Great Galactic Empire could not replicate centuries later.
I'll get to this later tonight, but of course on a macro level things don't change much, it's the smaller bits which would still be considered advancement. Though this is irrelevant in this battle really I was just pointing something out. Though the stuff the SE made the GE did develop at some at some point.
Alright so I'm just gonna briefly state some stuff, as this is all irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Regarding the Harrower Gauntlet, yes that is impressive for the time. But the GE already vastly surpassed this with Imperial ISD superlasers which were comparable to the DS 1 superlaser.
The ISD Conquerer had one and the superlasers of these ISDs could crack apart small moons and continents and reportedly also able to destroy entire planets, this being far superior than destroying star cruisers.
Now I'll give you to my knowledge, the superlaser can't hit in hyperspace, but it's far more deadly.
The Empire also had World Devastators which operated similarly to the Star Forge, being able to produce anything from starfighters to battle cruisers to other World Devastators and yes, the WD were being worked on at the time of the GE also.
Plus it's not as if the GE didn't have superweapons that the SE didn't have either.
But anyway all of this is irrelevant as all I was saying that technology did advance it just wasn't in your face, so let's get back to the topic at hand.
Now why do you think Leg, the EE wins?
Because from what I've seen and played(granted it has been awhile), the EE was formidable yes...but at the same time, the Eternal Alliance was staged out of a single planet with far less resources than the NR would have, yet the EE couldn't even squash them, they couldn't even find them, Scorpio handed them the location of the base and even when they launched an attack they still didn't win.
Now granted yes the Eternal Alliance did have some notable figures, but it's not as if the New Republic doesn't have those either.
Yes the EE does have more Force Users, but again if one side having more Force Users than the other mattered, wars wouldn't last so long. The EEs standard Force Users were still killed by troop/guerrilla tactics, something which the NR excels at being the former Rebel Alliance. (Also noted as being the most versatile faction in history.)
Yes the EA had the Gravestone, but frankly that's because the SE and Republic couldn't really muster any worthwhile fleets and as I recall when they did actually do that near the end game, the fleets were able to stand up to the Eternal Fleet at least for brief time IIRC.
The NR here doesn't need the Gravestone really, their ships are vastly superior to anything either the OR or SE has in terms of star cruisers and starfighter capability...
That also said...did the EF even have starfighters? All I recall them having were the Battle Cruisers.
I just can't really see the NR losing to the EE really.
To add since the stupid edit thing has a time limit(I really don't see why they just can't get rid of that.), I'm not saying that a fleet of OR or SE ships > Gravestone. But what I'm saying is, the Gravestone was the EA's ace in the hole so to speak.
But it's not as if we didn't see ships other than the Gravestone battle the EF and hold out. I mean you later had in Ch 1 of Knights of the Eternal Throne, a fleet comprising of OR and SE ships fight the EF, so clearly it doesn't take just the Gravestone to withstand or combat it, it just has an easier time destroying the Battle Cruisers compared to other ships.
So if fleets of OR and SE ships, which are inferior to NR ships in all capacities, especially firepower output, then I don't see why the NR fleets can't also battle the EF.
Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
Holy shit.Zenwolf my respect for you, as a debater, has increased tenfold.
That was an excellent post. Job well done.
I haven't really done anything as I'm sure others who are more well versed in the NR and TOR could do the same if not better(as both aren't really where I'm geared at), but thanks.
