Originally posted by MythLord
The droids themselves are not lightsaber resistant, they merely can create electromagnetic shields that are capable of deflecting lightsabers. Shan doesn't need to break said shields to crush the droids.
no, the droid's exoskeleton themselves were, in fact, resistant to lightsaber blows. Shigar noted that when he had to work extremely hard to penetrate their armor with his lightsaber. Not just that, they could also no sell heavy artillery blast fire [sufficient enough to burn though durasteel] tank an enraged Eldon's Force lightning and telekinetic crush without so much of a dent. While Satele Shan was casually crushing multiple with zero difficulty at all.
Quote for Shigar noting that? Because when either he or Eldon tried to pierce them with their lightsabers, the droid resorted to forming a shield. When they couldn't form their electromagnetic barrier, Shigar sliced and diced them like nothing:
"Shigar was ready for it. He Force-pushed the droid backward, sending it tumbling into space. There were more behind it, scrabbling for claw-holds on the torn metal. He leapt at them with lightsaber swinging, severing legs and stabbing at sense organs before the hexes could activate their electromirror shields."
-- Fatal Alliance
They also didn't no-sell heavy artillery -- their hide manages to deflect several bolts, but eventually the droid gets overwhelmed as seen when Potannin managed to damage one, Larin kept picking off their joints one-by-one, Shigar overcame one by deflecting it's own blaster fire back at it for a few seconds, etc.
Eldon Ax's lightning couldn't even overcome the insulators of a Mandalorian's armor, so it's not that powerful.
Also keep in mind when she tried to crush the Hex Droids, she had already wasted a significant portion of her reserves using a Barrier to shield her from their barrage. And good for Shan, she's a better offensive telekinetic than Eldon Ax... Now tell me why this is enough to ragdoll one of the most powerful Jedi Consulars of the PT era?
Quote for Shigar noting that?
[...]
Shigar stabbed down into the guts of the fallen droid, pressing hard to penetrate the surprisingly tough metal of its exoskeleton.
So yeah, as clearly stated, their exoskeleton is at least somewhat resistant to lightsaber blows.
They also didn't no-sell heavy artillery
Maybe "high artillery" was an overstatement [but they have deflected it before high artillery fire before], but it was factually no-selling blaster bolts from 4 shooters simultaneously before, to the point the barrage was rendered as nothing more than a distraction.
Stryver in turn had managed to maneuver it into a cul-de-sac and pinned it between him and a trio of Nikto security guards. Their blasters were ineffectual against the thing's armor, but they had a distracting effect.
So, yeah.
eventually the droid gets overwhelmed as seen when Potannin managed to damage one, Larin kept picking off their joints one-by-one, Shigar overcame one by deflecting it's own blaster fire back at it for a few seconds,
Quotes for all these, except the Shigar feat?
That one has context - iirc. I seem to recall the potency of the droids blaster fire becoming more and more powerful with each deflection, or something adjacent to that, so obviously, it wasn't normal blaster fire that did it in, it was a trumped up version of it's own ridiculously powerful blaster fire that did, if I'm recalling the same feat correctly.
Eldon Ax's lightning couldn't even overcome the insulators of a Mandalorian's armor, so it's not that powerful.
Still impressive to no sell it like it doesn't exist though - keep in mind she was enraged - a phenomenon that, at times, increases a Force users strength exponentially, or at least, more powerful their normal minded selves.
Also keep in mind when she tried to crush the Hex Droids, she had already wasted a significant portion of her reserves using a Barrier to shield her from their barrage.
Where was that stated? Even then, again, her being absolutely enraged would have circumvented that.
And good for Shan, she's a better offensive telekinetic than Eldon Ax... Now tell me why this is enough to ragdoll one of the most powerful Jedi Consulars of the PT era?
Holy shit, that isn't my argument.
A hex droids defensive capabilities is far above the anything Eldon can muster in the Force [Eldon, overall, is a pretty powerful Force user with some good showings in the Force], and Satele, while gesturing, is far above the defensive capabilities of the several hex droid.
In summary, none of Fisto's Force feats come close to Satele crushing something as durable as Hex droid via gesturing.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
[...]So yeah, as clearly stated, their exoskeleton is at least somewhat resistant to lightsaber blows.
You know, just because Shigar pressed down hard doesn't mean it's lightsaber resistant, lmao. Also do keep in mind that Shigar had to be incredibly careful because the droid was still kicking and capable of bruning him if he came too close.
Regardless, we have seen both him and Satele cut through the hex droids like butter with lightsabers later on in novel. Heck, even a Mandalorian's electrostaff managed to pierce it. At best you can argue their thick armor makes it a bit harder to penetrate than usual, but they're hardly lightsaber resistant.
Besides, Shan crushed them from the inside, IIRC, which means she didn't really have to go through their armor to begin with.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Maybe "high artillery" was an overstatement [but they have deflected it before high artillery fire before], but it was factually no-selling blaster bolts from 4 shooters simultaneously before, to the point the barrage was rendered as nothing more than a distraction.So, yeah.
Fair enough.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Quotes for all these, except the Shigar feat?
"Larin took her first shot, and missed. Her second hit the forelimb and was deflected. Her third struck the wrist joint squarely, severing the fire-shooting hand with a reddish flash.
[...]
Larin steadily picked off the hand weapons of her chosen target. When there were just two left, the droid transferred its weight to its four injured legs and hopped to where one of its fellows was trading fire with Dao Stryver."
-- Fatal Alliance
Also, keep in mind that the bodies of the hex droids have black circles that actually absorb blaster fire as energy and convert it to heat. This isn't so much a matter of durability as it is the tech being advanced enough to nullify a blaster's heat. But even that has it's limits:
"Another sniper rifle arrived, and Potannin took up the fight. He tried the joints, with little success, and moved on to the sense organs scattered across the chests of the things. The black circles reacted differently from the silver skin under fire. They absorbed everything that came at them, and radiated the energy as heat.
[i]Originally posted by Deronn_solo
That one has context - iirc. I seem to recall the potency of the droids blaster fire becoming more and more powerful with each deflection, or something adjacent to that, so obviously, it wasn't normal blaster fire that did it in, it was a trumped up version of it's own ridiculously powerful blaster fire that did, if I'm recalling the same feat correctly.
Actually, the only thing that was ramped up was the quantity of energy pulses the hex droid unleashed, thus making the stream "more intense". But the actual power of the blaster fire itself did not change by it being reflected.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Still impressive to no sell it like it doesn't exist though - keep in mind she was enraged - a phenomenon that, at times, increases a Force users strength exponentially, or at least, more powerful their normal minded selves.Where was that stated? Even then, again, her being absolutely enraged would have circumvented that.
She was actually enraged when she set up her Force Barrier:
"Ax raised herself to her knees, and from there, with a supreme effort of will, to her feet. The world swayed around her, but the scream was intact, and growing. The dark side swelled inside her.
The creatures from the vault saw her, and instantly turned their blue pulses onto her.
She set the scream free.
A Force barrier surrounded her, bare millimeters from her skin. It shimmered and flickered as wave after wave of energy crashed against it, but it held. It held as long as she screamed, as long as she didn't want to die."
-- Fatal Alliance
Which left her in a rather poor state despite her being enraged, and still wasted a significant portion of her reserves.
Regardless, lightning does not operate the same way telekinesis does; the damage it deals is completely different hence you cannot transfer tanking it to tanking TK.
So the only instance in this entire fight between the Hex Droids and Eldon that you can use in Satele's favour is when Axe fails to crush them. Give me worthwhile feats for Eldon to actually make that durability feat impressive.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Holy shit, that isn't my argument.A hex droids defensive capabilities is far above the anything Eldon can muster in the Force [Eldon, overall, is a pretty powerful Force user with some good showings in the Force], and Satele, while gesturing, is far above the defensive capabilities of the several hex droid.
In summary, none of Fisto's Force feats come close to Satele crushing something as durable as Hex droid via gesturing.
I know that isn't your argument, I'm just noting the best thing you can draw from the hex droid example is that she's better than Eldon, which Fisto is logically as well.
Fisto's energy orbs casually tearing through the hull of massive CIS ships is easily within the same ballpark as crushing the hexes.
You know, just because Shigar pressed down hard doesn't mean it's lightsaber resistant, lmao.
facepalm
Umm, yes? If he had to press down hard to penetrate it, that means the exoskeleton offered resistance to his attempt - thus, resistance. 😬 Sure a lightsaber could cut through it, but not as easily as it does with other materials not named Baskar and Corsis, which is the point.
You're just hilariously playing the semantic game here - a game that doesn't need to be played.
Besides, Shan crushed them from the inside, IIRC, which means she didn't really have to go through their armor to begin with.
No, she wasn't. In order to crumble them like balls, she had to crush their exoskeleton. Granted she blew some apart from the inside, but that was separated from the crushing with the conjunction "and'.
Actually, the only thing that was ramped up was the quantity of energy pulses the hex droid unleashed, thus making the stream "more intense". But the actual power of the blaster fire itself did not change by it being reflected.
Fair.
Regardless, we know they are highly resistant to blaster fire, and, can, at times, be nigh-impervious to them depending on the model of the fire arm. Well their hide at least. It seems the joints/limbs and such, isn't anywhere near as durable as the shell surrounding the rest of their body.
Also, keep in mind that the bodies of the hex droids have black circles that actually absorb blaster fire as energy and convert it to heat. This isn't so much a matter of durability as it is the tech being advanced enough to nullify a blaster's heat. But even that has it's limits.
Congrats you proved they can absorb energy, something anyone who has read the book fucking knows. That doesn't take away from the fact the silver parts on their bodies have deflected blast fire with no problem at all, sans any energy dissipating.
She was actually enraged when she set up her Force Barrier
Alright.
Which left her in a rather poor state despite her being enraged, and still wasted a significant portion of her reserves.
Again, where was it stated specifically her power was vitiated in a significant way after erecting the barrier?
Regardless, lightning does not operate the same way telekinesis does; the damage it deals is completely different hence you cannot transfer tanking it to tanking TK.
...Force Lightning is still Force energy and gives off damaging properties, how on God's green Earth does no-selling it, not reflect on it's overall durability?
Throughout the entire book Eldon was hyped as a powerful Force users, and everyone that encountered her sung her praises in the Force. We also know her barrier showings are pretty great given she was deflecting concentrated fire from Hex droids - which has melted through thick durasteel vault door - she also used some form of alter environment, or maybe pyrokinesis to melt a ferrocrete wall, all, I would say are pretty good Force feats.
So yeah, Eldon is pretty powerful and all the might she could muster couldn't even dent the outer shell of the a single Hex droid that resisted "more powerfully than durasteel".
She reached out a hand and tried to crush its inside telekinetically. Its honeycombed skeleton resisted more powerfully than durasteel. The hex's deadly limbs flailed to impale or shoot her, no matter how hard she strained.
While Setele was doing it via a simple gesture:
The Grand Master possessed prodigious Force powers. A gesture crushed hexes into balls or blew them apart from the inside.
To put it into context, the powerful Eldon Ax couldn't even budge a single hex droid, while - while Satele was casually doing away with multiple. So the outer shell of one Hex >> Eldon's TK --- the casually telekinetic power of Shan >>>>>> The outer shell of a Hex droid.
- Really, all of this mental gymnastic is getting tiresome. From the onset - all of the points I made initially stand.
1. Hex droids exoskeleton have no-selled blaster fire, and are highly resistant to them.
2. Their shells offer some resistance to lightsaber attacks
3. They were completely impervious to Eldon's attacks.
4. Satele crushed them with a simple gesture.
After two pretty big post, you haven't really debunked any of this besides nitpicking this and that.
I know that isn't your argument, I'm just noting the best thing you can draw from the hex droid example.
Uh-huh.
Fisto's energy orbs casually tearing through the hull of massive CIS ships is easily within the same ballpark as crushing the hexes.
At face value, sure. Thing is, Fisto put significantly more effort into achieving his feat than Satele did. While he gathered up energy for 2-3 seconds, Satele was stunning, imploding, and crushing multiple hex droid in the time it would take for her to raise her hand.
Regardless, she has a number of others impressive feats that blow him out of the water including, but not limited to,
- destroying an entire cliff-side, and crushing Malgus with it.
- absorbing the energy of a lightsaber blade.
- exhibiting galactic level telepathy
- creating Force bubbles that can survive the vacuum of space, and repel the hex could throw at her.
- having BM that was mentioned in the same vain as Bastila Shan, greatly increase the combative effetiveness of her comrads and even with the ability to revive and heal injured comrades.
Fisto is outclassed, tbh.
Re: Who wins these matches?
Originally posted by Total Warrior
title says all. There are a series of matches, just write the name of the winner and if You want also the reason said character wins.1) Yoda vs Valkorion
2) Darth Krayt vs Darth Plagueis
3) RotS Obi wan Kenobi vs Cade Skywalker
4) DoE Bane vs Wrath II
5) Darth Zannah vs DD Ventress
6) K'Kruhk vs S3 Kanan Jarrus
7) DD Quinlan Vos vs Darth Marr
8) Satele Shan vs Kit Fisto
9) Average PT era Jedi Knight vs Chirrut imwe (assume his staff can block lightsabers)
10) Darth Malak vs Jaina Solo
Valkorion.
Either way.
Kenobi.
Wrath.
Zannah.
K'kruhk.
DD Vos.
Shan.
Malak.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
How about Pearl (Steven Universe) [Wollf] vs ToaA [Deronn]?
no, shit matchup.
How about my Darth Malgus [FE] vs Wollf's Count Dooku? Or non Star Wars, my *insert random Digimon here* vs a Pokemon or YGO character of his choosing? We can do a comic/vid-game matchup too, tbh.