Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I believe I addressed this part in this thread before. Here it is: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=640189&pagenumber=5
I think I'm going to cut in, here. See, the quote doesn't say Plagueis was history's most powerful living Sith. It said he was the most powerful Sith who had ever lived.
Even after his initial death, Vitiate was a Sith who had lived, therefore he qualifies. And he was certainly a Sith for a good amount of time; how long is probably the more correct question to be discussing.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I think I'm going to cut in, here. See, the quote doesn't say Plagueis was history's most powerful living Sith. It said he was the most powerful Sith who had ever lived.Even after his initial death, Vitiate was a Sith who had lived, therefore he qualifies. And he was certainly a Sith for a good amount of time; how long is probably the more correct question to be discussing.
And why are some taking a single statement from a secondary source as gospel? This statement was only on the back cover of the first print of the novel that came out in January 2012. The reprint that came out in October 2012, features a different statement and even that is hyperbole. TOR Encylopedia came out in October 2012, if I am not mistaken so the publisher of the novel had access to more information about Vitiate at this stage.
Back cover of a reprint can carry newer information but primary marketing statement doesn't changes. Check hard and paperback prints of Revan novel for reference.
In case of Palpatine, we have a good argument and huge amount of content at hand. This is not the case with Plagueis.
I personally don't find accolades to be definitive unless it's a consistent theme, like with Sidious. He consistently portrayed as the most powerful villain in terms of success, cunning, raw power, etc. Is that because Sidious is much more well written than Valkorion, generally speaking? I think it certainly contributes to it.
To elaborate on my previous post, I do feel that Valkorion is obviously meant to parallel DE Sidious, but when we look into something as story relevant as, "who would win in a fight," Bioware wrote Valkorion poorly. This also ties into where I feel Bioware ****ed up with Vitiate/Valkorion as a character. Now you're probably wondering, "Why tf is "who would win in a fight" story relevant?"
Well, Vitiate has a personality. He represents something. He has goals. The Revan Novel, where Vitiate was conceived, gave us a pretty clear idea of what Vitiate represented, at least initially. He was better than you. More experienced, more intellectual, more powerful, more cunning, it didn't matter, he was the ultimate mastermind. I don't have quotes on me, but his unprecedentedly long reign was attributed to his brilliant cunning and masterful manipulation. Hell, Scourge initially postulated whether or not Vitiate may have indeed been omniscient. Then Scourge meets Vitiate, and he noticed just how ****ed up, yet transcendent this guy is. Scourge, a Sith prodigy, knew he'd never understand the force in the same way Vitiate did. Vitiate created arguably the most dangerous/powerful holocron ever when he was 10! Vitiate was a being who "transcended" his mortal sycophants, his concepts of life and death were far more powerful and meaningful than that of an average mortal. He was the void, a darker, more mysterious carbon copy of Sidious.
Then he almost got beheaded by Meetra Surik. 😬
Literally, if Meetra didn't care so much for Revan, Vitiate would be dead. The trio of a just-healed-from-his-face-melting Revan, and stomped-by-Nyriss Scourge and Meetra gave Vitiate pause. The trio had a 50/50 chance of winning, for crying out loud! I mean, did Drew realize how inconsistent this was? Hell, Scourge worked Vitiate's highest attainable position in his Empire as a double agent for 300 years, and the "brilliant, cunning, possibly omniscient" Emperor had absolutely no idea. Vader couldn't hide his thoughts from across the galaxy.
One thing I liked that Bioware did is that Vitiate ultimately outlasted and completely humiliated Revan, the greatest champion in the history of the Republic, (up till his time, and probably all the way till the likes of Luke and Anakin Skywalker). Vitiate dominated his will with a thought after the mandalorian Wars, for all intents and purposes beat him down in the Revan fight, tortured him for 300 years, and had his servants thwart him at the Foundry. He ****ed with Revan so badly that his body and spirit literally split, (as stupid as this was) for crying out loud. The best part? Revan's efforts simply made Vitiate more powerful than ever in SOR. Vitiate kind of owned Revan, no offense to Ant (ily bae 🙂). It's similar imo to how Sidious manipulated, usurped, and defeated Yoda, but not quite as dominant. This Revan vs Vitiate arc shows how Vitiate was meant to be as a character. Does the "better than you" type of character appeal to everyone? Absolutely not, but it's even worse when he's written to be that way and then inexplicably fails. Every. Freaking. Time.
To make this shorter, as I've explained numerous times, Ziost/KOTFE/KOTET had this same issue where Valkorion started out seeming invincible, transcendent, like everything was a part of his plan, only to be thwarted yet again. By the Outlander, a guy most people still consider sub-Revan as far as power is concerned. So instead of the 1400 year old "godlike/omniscient" entity getting overpowered by the 27-30 year old prodigy kid, he got outwilled and outsmarted by him instead! Outlander had help, of course. From the son Valkorion already oneshotted and the daughter he could pacify with a phrase. Oh wait, Outlander took control of Vaylin, by using the holocron Valkorion made...when he was
10. 😂
Then, instead of leaving Valk to his shame, they shame him even more by writing that he's actually been killed multiple times, not necessarily by the Hero of Tython/Outlander. I don't recall multiple individuals being capable of murdering Sidious under any circumstances.
The evidence points to Sidious being superior because all Bioware could do just for Valkorion is accolades and flashy lights and the occasional impressive combat feat that ROTJ Sidious could replicate. Just my 2(thousand) cents.
I also just want to say that I feel no Sith/villain compares to Valkorion in terms of power and uniqueness sans Sidious. Sidious' line was about subterfuge and slowly acquiring power and control until they could rip out the floor from under the Jedi. Sidious was the culmination of this and took it to the upteenth degree, but it's more than that. He didn't want to continue the Banite Line and ultimately die for the greater good of the Sith. He was the Banite line. He was the greatest and only good of the Sith. All existence was for him to slowly feed on and absorb into his infinite ego, supplied by the bloodline of the force itself: the dynasty of the Skywalkers. Stark contrast from Bane, am I right?
Vitiate was different, but no less anomalistic. He created the most powerful and dangerous holocron in Galactic History when he was 10. Was anointed a Sith Lord by Marka Ragnos himself at age 13. Despite this, he wasn't to carry on the ancient dynasty like Sidious did with the Banites. Vitiate was an outcasted, manipulative recluse. The ancient lords such as Ragnos, Sadow, Hord, and Kun hated Vitiate, (each even giving the protagonist a boon of power on Yavin IV to combat the Emperor and his machinations). Why? Because he had no intention of carrying on the royal bloodline. Like Sidious, he was the bloodline. He was the most intelligent, knowledgeable, powerful, manipulative, and long-lived of them all. But he too had bigger aims. He wanted to literally consume all life in the galaxy, from stars to planets to trillions of lives, to in effect become God. Then, to attain true omniscience, he would experience everyone and everything, and promptly wait for the cycle to begin again. Stark contrast from Marka Ragnos and his codes of honor, an I right?
While some will argue Plagueis is superior to Valkorion because of some quote, I will forever disagree. Valkorion is a bit too Sidious-like to be sub-Plagueis, imo.
The thing is, Plagueis was also ready to expire the Banite line and become the eternal, immortal lord of all Sith/the galaxy/the universe. He too had paramount intelligence, knowledge, power, manipulations, etc. He too wanted eternal rule under the cover of immortality. And if anything, he too represented the pinnacle of Sith knowledge and power as Vitiate did. Palpatine just went above and beyond — he collected knowledge from the Jedi Archives, all sorts of other Force organizations, knowledge from over a million worlds. I sincerely see very little debate on who is the grandest of all Sith — that belongs to Palpatine. The argument for second place isn't as overwhelmingly clear-cut. There's only two real contenders, of course — Vitiate and Plagueis. I just don't see the sense of ruling Plagueis out on account of Vitiate being a proto-Sidious.
Everything Skillz said is well and true regarding his comparison with Vitiate and Sidious, but Plagueis is not all that dissimilar. He might not have been as much of a mirror of Palpatine as Vitiate, but he was very much the proto-Sidious. Disavowing the notion of Vitiate being below Plagueis because he's similar to Palpatine makes no sense — they're both proto-Palpatines in their own way.
We associate Sith immortality with either being ethereal in nature (because that's the vast majority of cases) or being something that required an immense cost (such as Sion living in eternal agony). Plagueis found a completely alternate method of eternal life — biological, literal immortality. There's no more need to rely on hosts and jump around in bodies because your own body will sustain you forever with midi-chlorian manipulation. Fittingly, it's known as "the ultimate power", "the power over life and death", etc. Plagueis more or less learned to manipulate the basic building blocks of the Force itself. Had Palpatine not murdered him in 32BBY, we can only imagine what he would be able to achieve. Midi-chlorian manipulation, more than Essence Transfer, more than anything else, is the power over life and death. Nobody would've gone for Essence Transfer if they were able to keep themselves immortal in their own bodies. It is the ultimate power, which is why (among other reasons) Plagueis being named alongside Sidious and Vitiate isn't ludicrous in the slightest.
Dark Transfer's probably the only thing that compares to midi-chlorian manipulation in terms of being the power over life and death. But Dark Transfer wouldn't really make you immortal. Certainly the upper limits of midi-chlorian manipulation, if any, would've been far beyond those of Dark Transfer.
And no, Krayt doesn't fit the mold of characters we're discussing here. He was completely devoid of talent in certain Sith areas and Wyyrlok possessed more knowledge of the Force than he did.
@SunRazer
That is a sound explanation. I am willing to roll with that. Unfortunately, fans of your intellect are rare. Many simply don't understand what the word 'powerful' really stands for because they seldom concentrate on the context behind a statement.
The original Hardcover print of Darth Plagueis novel came out in January 10, 2012 and contains this marketing statement:
Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived. But could he be the only one who never died?
Reprints of the aforementioned novel came out at a later date and added context to the aforementioned statement with following revelations:
Darth Plagueis: Like all Sith Lords before him, he craves absolute power. But like no Sith Lord ever, he possesses the ultimate power—over life and death.
&
Darth Plagueis: one of the most brilliant Sith Lords who ever lived. Possessing power is all he desires. Losing it is the only thing he fears. As an apprentice, he embraces the ruthless ways of the Sith. And when the time is right, he destroys his Master—but vows never to suffer the same fate. For like no other disciple of the dark side, Darth Plagueis learns to command the ultimate power . . . over life and death.
So what message these statements are collectively conveying actually?
Hint: Darth Plagueis's proficiency in the domain of Midichlorian Manipulation - a domain that is a gateway to achieving ultimate power over life and death.
The publisher of the aforementioned novel (i.e. Del Rey) perceives Darth Plagueis as the most powerful Sith Lord in history due to the aforementioned reason (exclusively). In other words, this promotion has a subjective connotation to it. And what strikes me as odd is that this promotion came from the publisher and not the author of the novel which is norm.
Now, Del Rey isn't an authority on creations of BioWare and Star Was lore on the whole unless stated otherwise. At the start of 2012, Vitiate's story was under development and far from complete. Even the famous TOR Encyclopedia came out in October 15, 2012, five days (after) the release of a reprint of Darth Plagueis novel (i.e. Mass Market Paperback).
Therefore, Del Rey's knowledge of Vitiate was limited to the TOR Revan novel and the SWTOR base game. Not sure if Del Rey even bothered to consult the game for information because such responsibility lay with the author of a book and not with the publisher.
Much of the hype and spectacular showings of Vitiate are featured in content outside the novel including TOR Encyclopedia and expansions such as Rise of the Emperor, Knights of the Fallen Empire and Knights of the Eternal Throne. And none of this content was at the disposal of Del Rey at the time of promoting Darth Plagueis.
I never dismissed Darth Plagueis's promotion on the grounds of personal bias, I focused on its context and brought real-world perspective into it. I am willing to accommodate Darth Plagueis's promotion but within the framework of its context and affiliated realities. So Darth Plagueis > Valkorion in the sense that the former was proficient in the domain of Midichlorian Manipulation while the latter was not. However, I am not going to ignore other realities that seem to imply that Valkorion > Darth Plagueis in other ways including raw power. I recommend all fans to follow this route.
Problem is that some fans are too biased or shortsighted to understand greater realities of the lore and are adamant on asserting that Darth Plagueis > Valkorion on the whole, ignoring the context behind such promotion and a number of realities that define Valkorion. Besides Del Rey, no other source endorses Darth Plagueis's promotion so we don't have a consensus in relation to it.
Palpatine's case is somewhat different because his standing has a consensus behind it from a number of authors and sources. However, their is room for debate in this case as well because we don't have a source that covers entire history of Palpatine and Valkorion and still declares the former as superior in a definitive manner. And this is unlikely due to Legends-Canon split.
I would also like to add:
I don't deny the possibilities with Midichlorian Manipulation either; if Darth Plagueis had the time and luxury to explore and master this domain on a higher level, perhaps he could achieve wonders with it. However, should the comparison between Valkorion and Darth Plagueis come down to hypotheticals?
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I see your point but Vitiate became Valkorion at some point
& I think we have a fair idea as to when, as well.
and also has accolades like he is the most powerful Force-user ever and immeasurably strong in content (and literature) that came [after] the release of Darth Plagueis novel.
Once again, the quote saying that Vitiate was the most dominating force user the galaxy has ever seen was from SWTORE, which was an in-universe source dating millennia prior to Plagueis' birth. The galaxy hadn't seen Plagueis yet, therefore the accolade doesn't necessarily apply to him.
On the other hand, iirc the Plagueis novel came out after the Revan novel, and you can't exactly plead ignorance when Vitiate actually had a mention in the novel. While it's true that some of Vitiate's impressive material didn't come out until after that, he was still powerful enough to overmatch Revan at the time.
The reprint that came out in October 2012, features a different statement and even that is hyperbole.
This issue has already been well addressed by other members, and I also feel like you don't have a good grasp of what hyperbole means..
In case of Palpatine, we have a good argument and huge amount of content at hand. This is not the case with Plagueis.
Sure we do... weren't you the one who suggested just the other day that Plagueis could potentially defeat Yoda?