Originally posted by MythLord
Sadly, it ain't.
Is that so? Interesting.
While I appreciate the effort put into this, it seems unnecessary. The novel goes to great lengths to express how fvcked Luke's mental state is. I don't see the use in explaining something that's about as common as addition and subtraction problems. Still nice thread, structure and all that.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Among those with common sense yeah.
Except this is like... Basic math lol
Re: Luke Skywalker vs Exar Kun: Context and Circumstances
Originally posted by MythLord
http://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/wollfmyth209/blog/luke-skywalker-vs-exar-kun-context-and-circumstanc/130541/
Up yers, AP.LETS HAVE A REASONABLE DISCUSSION.
Whilst Luke Skywalker's mental integrity is questionable all the way until Specters of the Past, he is also more powerful than ever before:
Luke's expression softened further. "I had to witness the death of my first teacher. I also had to confront Darth Vader, my own father. I have done other difficult tasks.
"I did not plan these things, but each time I passed through the fire of an ordeal such as those, I emerged a more powerful Jedi."
- Star Wars Jedi Academy Trilogy Volume 3 - Champions of the Force
Nor did he fail to summon all possible power in the fight:
Luke dropped his useless lightsaber and crouched. His every muscle suddenly coiled and tensed. He rallied all the powers of the Force around him, seeking any defensive tactic.-
Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him—but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly.
- Star Wars: Jedi Academy Trilogy: Volume 2 - Dark Apprentice
One fallacy dealt with.
The relationship between Exar Kun's spirit and the Yavin IV Temples has already been explained in detail:
Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.
- The Dark Side Sourcebook
That's all they've ever been stated to do for him, funnily enough, Kyp Durron amped with a Temple is still feeble in comparison to when he's amped by Exar Kun:
He reached out with his mind, following the paths of the Force that led to every object in the universe, drawing power from the cosmic focal point of the Massassi temple.He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt.
- Star Wars: Jedi Academy Trilogy: Volume 2 - Dark Apprentice
The relationship between Exar Kun and Kyp Durron is simple, Lun is powerless withput a source of enerfy to draw from-that's Kyp-when he does have a reservoir of energy to replace his own long lost reserves, he can summon his own power, which is far greater than Kyp's own:
Exar Kun himself possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris, and Streen to achieve his ends.
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook
As is further explored here:
The Force blow he aimed at me glanced off my chest, yet it was strong enough to bounce me off the corrider wall. I managed to catch myself against the rough stone, but not before I'd slid half-way down the wall.
"You are not my master!" Kyp pointed back toward the dining room, "He is not my master! What good is it being a Jedi if we do not act?"
"What good is it being Jedi if we don't act responsibly?" I hauled myself upright, "Remember Kyp, the 'no good Jedi' kicked Kun's butt.." Kyp struck at me again through the Force but I expected it this time, I absorbed enough of it to let me create a shield.
"You're involved with someone who lost a long time ago, don't compound his error."
"And who will stop me?" I hesitated because Kyp's words seemed to echo within themselves, we were not alone, which meant Kyp's mentor had come to aid his apprentice.
"I will, if you make it necessary." An ancient sneer of contempt twisted Kyp's features.
"Puny Jedi, you are of no concern to me." Even though I had braced myself for another attack, it did no good. Kyp's previous blows were like light breezes compared to this full-on gale.I slammed back into the wall with teeth rattling-impact.
- Star Wars: I, Jedi Audiobook
By now you might want to realise that Kyp Durron never obtained an amulet and it's highly likely that a protagonist from Shadow of Revan took said amulet.
Nice discussion. 👆
When Vader can:
-physically tank Force attacks from beings that can tank supernova waves that fry the surfaces of planets.
-easily dominate millions of Sith.
-one-shot Jedi such as Odan-Urr, Thon and Baas through the Force.
-has become powerful than Vitiate, pre-prime.
-disintegrate dozens if not hundreds of Massassi whilst massively pre-prime.
There might be a discussion.
Vader is Ragnos to Nadd tier at best.
Originally posted by AncientPower
-physically tank Force attacks from beings that can tank supernova waves that fry the surfaces of planets.
Originally posted by AncientPower
-easily dominate millions of Sith.
Originally posted by AncientPower
-one-shot Jedi such as Odan-Urr, Thon and Baas through the Force.
Originally posted by AncientPower
-has become powerful than Vitiate, pre-prime.
Originally posted by AncientPower
-disintegrate dozens if not hundreds of Massassi whilst massively pre-prime.
Originally posted by AncientPower
There might be a discussion.Vader is Ragnos to Nadd tier at best.
Re: Re: Luke Skywalker vs Exar Kun: Context and Circumstances
Originally posted by AncientPower
Whilst Luke Skywalker's mental integrity is questionable all the way until Specters of the Past, he is also more powerful than ever before:
And sadly he can't use the power if he's as mentally unhinged as he was when he fought Kyp and Kun. The quote in the blog summed it up fairly well:
"'Let me guess,' she said, the sarcasm gone from her voice again. 'Life as a Jedi has been a lot foggier than you ever expected it to be. You've had trouble understanding what you're supposed to do, or how you're supposed to behave. You've been gaining tremendous power in the Force, but more often than not you've been paralyzed with fear that you're going to use it the wrong way. Am I getting warm?'
Luke stared at her. 'Yes,' he said, not quite believing it. How had she known? 'That's it exactly.'"
-- Visions of the Future
So despite the fact that he's more powerful than ever(which is already more powerful than Exar Kun, as I've detailed in the blog), he can't use said power properly.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Nor did he fail to summon all possible power in the fight:
Given his poor mental state and the environment massively hindering him, that's quite frankly not going to be all the power he has to offer. And said power was still enough to shield his physical body entirely from any long lasting damaging effects of the Dark Side tendrils or lightning(refer to the blog for quotes) so it's fairly evident his Force defenses were at least somewhat successful. 👆
Originally posted by AncientPower
The relationship between Exar Kun's spirit and the Yavin IV Temples has already been explained in detail:
KEK, you've practically given me a quote that says Exar draws on the Dark Side nexus of Yavin IV. Thanks. 👆
Originally posted by AncientPower
That's all they've ever been stated to do for him, funnily enough, Kyp Durron amped with a Temple is still feeble in comparison to when he's amped by Exar Kun:
Just because they stop his spirit from disolving doesn't mean they also can't be used as further amplification given how that's how Dark Side nexuses operate.
Anyways, the very power of the nexus isn't feeble compared to Exar Kun's; Kyp Durron's sense abilities, even amped by the Temple, just aren't as good as Exar's. He was using the Force to search through the Yavin system for the Sun Crusher, and Kun simply helped him extend his thoughts.
Originally posted by AncientPower
The relationship between Exar Kun and Kyp Durron is simple, Lun is powerless withput a source of enerfy to draw from-that's Kyp-when he does have a reservoir of energy to replace his own long lost reserves, he can summon his own power, which is far greater than Kyp's own:
Actually, that just means Exar has to use Kyp's own power in order to unleash his own techniques. It's still Durron doing the heavy lifting, given how I, Jedi identifies him as the one hurling Corran, Dark Apprentice notes it's his might, with Kun's weapons, and The Jedi Academy Sourcebook notes that Exar is simply boosting/unlocking Kyp's potential.
Keep in mind this was a novel written at a time where a rookie Jedi can overcome one of the greatest DS nexuses in the galaxy with Battle Meditation, with room to spare. And BMs and abilities to that effect actually unlock one's potential, allowing them to achieve far greater heights of power than they normally would in that moment.
Originally posted by AncientPower
By now you might want to realise that Kyp Durron never obtained an amulet and it's highly likely that a protagonist from Shadow of Revan took said amulet.
And yet it notes Kyp possessed the "forbidden weapons of Exar Kun", which obviously means his amulet.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Nice discussion. 👆
Always nice proving you wrong. I like how you failed to address Luke being canonically more powerful than Kun or overcoming him on an equal playingfield, though. 👆
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ood Bnar transformed into a tree-like form and drew power from the depths of planet Ossus to pull that off, and it is a feat of defense. He did not attack Exar Kun with raw power of that magnitude.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Millions?
This dark Jedi dominated the Sith people, though his methods of doing so were not recorded in Sadow's Holocron. He turned them into unwilling thralls, stealing their knowledge of sorcery and using it against them.
- Tales of the Jedi Companion
Exar Kun is far more powerful than him.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Separately
As if I claimed otherwise.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not even close
Confirmed in three sources, nothing contradicts this until the Encyclopedia which is dated 350 years after.
Re: Re: Re: Luke Skywalker vs Exar Kun: Context and Circumstances
Originally posted by MythLord
And sadly he can't use the power if he's as mentally unhinged as he was when he fought Kyp and Kun. The quote in the blog summed it up fairly well:"'Let me guess,' she said, the sarcasm gone from her voice again. 'Life as a Jedi has been a lot foggier than you ever expected it to be. You've had trouble understanding what you're supposed to do, or how you're supposed to behave. You've been gaining tremendous power in the Force, but more often than not you've been paralyzed with fear that you're going to use it the wrong way. Am I getting warm?'
Luke stared at her. 'Yes,' he said, not quite believing it. How had she known? 'That's it exactly.'"
-- Visions of the Future
So according to Mara Jade he's paralysed by fear, and we're going to take her claim over sources that state he's using all the power of the Force in the battle in question? 😂
I guess I should start using Horn to claim Spirit Kun is so much more powerful than Luke that Horn had never even conceived of such prowess before. 👆
I wouldn't at all argue against his fear over his power somewhat hindering him but not instances ehere he's directly dtated to have done the opposite.
Originally posted by MythLord
So despite the fact that he's more powerful than ever(which is already more powerful than Exar Kun, as I've detailed in the blog), he can't use said power properly.
More powerful than Exar Kun's powerless spirit, sure.
He's directly stated to have done do in the primary source on the matter.
Originally posted by MythLord
Given his poor mental state and the environment massively hindering him, that's quite frankly not going to be all the power he has to offer. And said power was still enough to shield his physical body entirely from any long lasting damaging effects of the Dark Side tendrils or lightning(refer to the blog for quotes) so it's fairly evident his Force defenses were at least somewhat successful. 👆
The environment that so massively hinders them, that they can use said environment to massively amp themselves. 😬
Originally posted by MythLord
KEK, you've practically given me a quote that says Exar draws on the Dark Side nexus of Yavin IV. Thanks. 👆
His spirit sustains itself off of the focusing points of the Temple designed to channel his power, yes. Nothing else is ever stated, so you can desperately grasp those straws all you like.
Originally posted by MythLord
Just because they stop his spirit from disolving doesn't mean they also can't be used as further amplification given how that's how Dark Side nexuses operate.
Given he's never stated to have done so in any canonical source, that's baseless speculation.
Originally posted by MythLord
Anyways, the very power of the nexus isn't feeble compared to Exar Kun's; Kyp Durron's sense abilities, even amped by the Temple, just aren't as good as Exar's. He was using the Force to search through the Yavin system for the Sun Crusher, and Kun simply helped him extend his thoughts.
Yet the amplification Kun provides him outstrips that which he gains via the focusing point completely. This is no different than Traya in the Trayus Core, using it's power to boost her senses and farsight.
Originally posted by MythLord
Actually, that just means Exar has to use Kyp's own power in order to unleash his own techniques. It's still Durron doing the heavy lifting, given how I, Jedi identifies him as the one hurling Corran, Dark Apprentice notes it's his might, with Kun's weapons, and The Jedi Academy Sourcebook notes that Exar is simply boosting/unlocking Kyp's potential.
Of course he's doing the heavy lifting, he's the being dpminated and having Kun's powers exerted through. It doesn't change the fact that he was still only capable of some of his powers nor did Kyp ptovide enough of the energy to retain Kun's own lost reserves of energy. As is all stated in Sourcebooks.
Originally posted by MythLord
Keep in mind this was a novel written at a time where a rookie Jedi can overcome one of the greatest DS nexuses in the galaxy with Battle Meditation, with room to spare. And BMs and abilities to that effect actually unlock one's potential, allowing them to achieve far greater heights of power than they normally would in that moment.
An astute observation.
Originally posted by MythLord
And yet it notes Kyp possessed the "forbidden weapons of Exar Kun", which obviously means his amulet.
Which are the Sith techniques Kun taught him, he himself refers to them as weapons too but he clearly means powers.
Originally posted by MythLord
Always nice proving you wrong. I like how you failed to address Luke being canonically more powerful than Kun or overcoming him on an equal playingfield, though. 👆
Luke being canonically more powerful than his Spirit when he has no power means nothing. Luke sent him reeling with a surprise attack.
When even LeG isn't buying your TOR wank, you know something's wrong. 😱
Originally posted by AncientPowerTry withstanding the destruction of a Sith superweapon that can atomise anything its path or a blast caused by Galen Marek unleashing all the power the Force within him.
When Vader can:-physically tank Force attacks from beings that can tank supernova waves that fry the surfaces of planets.
I'll take over struggling to get up after being floored by a tree, kek.
-easily dominate millions of Sith.I assume you mean senators. 😂
-one-shot Jedi such as Odan-Urr, Thon and Baas through the Force.Try ragdolling Starkiller, kek.
-has become powerful than Vitiate, pre-prime.For once Leg is on the money, not even close.
-disintegrate dozens if not hundreds of Massassi whilst massively pre-prime.Through having his powers focused through an intensifying amulet, itself amped by the concentrated dark energies of a Sith temple. Try blowing up Lyleks with carapaces harder than armor without amulets, nexi and some 15 years before his prime.
There might be a discussion.Sadly there isn't one, Vader trashes Kun in the feats department. 🙁
Vader is Ragnos to Nadd tier at best.Is that the truth? 💃
Originally posted by Beniboybling
When even LeG isn't buying your TOR wank, you know something's wrong. 😱 Try withstanding the destruction of a Sith superweapon that can atomise anything its path or a blast caused by Galen Marek unleashing all the power the Force within him.
Were either of those supposed to compare to prowess that tanks supernova waves? The denial is strong. 😂
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I'll take over struggling to get up after being floored by a tree, kek.
A tree that has a far greater feat than anything Vader has ever accomplished.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I assume you mean senators. 😂
His distant inferior enthralled and dominated the entire Sith people against their will and ripped their knowledge of sorcery from them. He was called Ajunta Pall.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Try ragdolling Starkiller, kek.
I'm pretty sure shrugging off Odan-Urr's most powerful attack before one-shotting him, a guy who is more powerful than Thon, who could single-handedly Wall of Light an extreme Dark Side Nexus such as Ambria, whilst exhausted, is slightly more impressive than a single good feat against a guy who later subdues Vader completely.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
For once Leg is on the money, not even close.
Denial is the first step, Beni.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Through having his powers focused through an intensifying amulet, itself amped by the concentrated dark energies of a Sith temple. Try blowing up Lyleks with carapaces harder than armor without amulets, nexi and some 15 years before his prime.
The amulet powered the Temple, not the other way around. 😬
Exar Kun immediately grew more powerful, then went to stalemate Ulic, bedore gaining tremendous dark side powers, before stomping Odan-Urr and becoming even more powerful, gaining tremendous Sith knowledge and achieving his prime. Any kind of amp is absolutely negligible next to this power growth.
Blowing up Lyleks =/= Disintegrating potentially hundreds of Massassi Warriors.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sadly there isn't one, Vader trashes Kun in the feats department. 🙁
You've yet to provide anything suggesting anything remotely close to that.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Is that the truth? 💃
Evidently. 👆
Re: Re: Re: Re: Luke Skywalker vs Exar Kun: Context and Circumstances
Originally posted by AncientPower
So according to Mara Jade he's paralysed by fear, and we're going to take her claim over sources that state he's using all the power of the Force in the battle in question? 😂
"All the power of the Force" clearly means all the power he could've mustered at that given moment.
Regardless, Luke himself has openly agreed with Mara's observation and deemed it correct. He'd know more about himself and his hinderences/weaknesses than Kun's yandere.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I guess I should start using Horn to claim Spirit Kun is so much more powerful than Luke that Horn had never even conceived of such prowess before. 👆
A claim that has been debunked God knows how many times.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I wouldn't at all argue against his fear over his power somewhat hindering him but not instances ehere he's directly dtated to have done the opposite.
Thankfully, this isn't one of those instances since it states Luke couldn't control his growing fear. Not to mention his emotional confliction
Originally posted by AncientPower
He's directly stated to have done do in the primary source on the matter.
Not at all. "All the power of the Force" is obviously not just hyperbolic, but is referring to the power he could've mustered in that moment, unless you'd have me believe Corran Horn defended himself more adequately against Kyp's assault than Luke could have, which is absolutely hilarious. 👆
Originally posted by AncientPower
The environment that so massively hinders them, that they can use said environment to massively amp themselves. 😬
When they actively draw on it, which you have no proof Luke did and it's completely out of character for Luke to do so. Otherwise, a DS nexus hinders any Light Sider who doesn't want to run the risk of tapping into it and giving into his anger/the dark side; something that is also been stated in Luke's exchange with Kun and Kyp.
Originally posted by AncientPower
His spirit sustains itself off of the focusing points of the Temple designed to channel his power, yes. Nothing else is ever stated, so you can desperately grasp those straws all you like.
You don't need it to be stated in order to use freaking common sense, but that's a skill long lost to you, I'm sure. 👆
Originally posted by AncientPower
Yet the amplification Kun provides him outstrips that which he gains via the focusing point completely. This is no different than Traya in the Trayus Core, using it's power to boost her senses and farsight.
Kun isn't so much amplifying him as allowing him to see further, more clearly, opening his mind. That doesn't mean his raw power is > the power of the nexus.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Of course he's doing the heavy lifting, he's the being dpminated and having Kun's powers exerted through. It doesn't change the fact that he was still only capable of some of his powers nor did Kyp ptovide enough of the energy to retain Kun's own lost reserves of energy. As is all stated in Sourcebooks.
It isn't Exar Kun's power. I really don't care how dense you are or how much you want to deny it, the actual primary source states it's Kyp's might using Kun's weapons. The Jedi Academy Training Manual also notes that Sith spirits can only possess the powers of their hosts; so it's not Kun's power being unleashed through Kyp, it's Kyp's power being magnified by Kun.
Kyp is more than capable of matching/surpassing Kun's own reserves; it's just Kyp's power isn't enough to completely reanimate Exar's body or release him from his trap.
Originally posted by AncientPower
An astute observation.
Something you're seemingly incapable of. 👆
Originally posted by AncientPower
Which are the Sith techniques Kun taught him, he himself refers to them as weapons too but he clearly means powers.
Possibly. mmm
Originally posted by AncientPower
Luke being canonically more powerful than his Spirit when he has no power means nothing. Luke sent him reeling with a surprise attack.
It means Kun couldn't have overcome Luke without Kyp's power, darling; yet Kun's power is >>>>> Kyp's according to you and your fallacious logic and somehow Durron played a much bigger role in that contest than Exar, who only served to cheapshot Skywalker and amplify Kyp.
And assuming Luke is less powerful than Exar, said surprise attack wouldn't have made Exar Kun flee like a b!tch and practically admit defeat. But it did.
Originally posted by AncientPowerMy goodness, are you attempting to suggest that because Kun didn't die to Bnar's attack he can tank supernovas as well? What kind of quarter wit are you? haermm
Were either of those supposed to compare to prowess that tanks supernova waves? The denial is strong. 😂
A tree that has a far greater feat than anything Vader has ever accomplished.And that same tree was more powerful than Kun. 😆
His distant inferior enthralled and dominated the entire Sith people against their will and ripped their knowledge of sorcery from them. He was called Ajunta Pall.Retconned lel, Soruz Syn's own accounting states that they achieved authority by undermining their power structure and killing their king, garnering respect for their power, not enforcing it.
I'm pretty sure shrugging off Odan-Urr's most powerful attack before one-shotting him, a guy who is more powerful than Thon, who could single-handedly Wall of Light an extreme Dark Side Nexus such as Ambria, whilst exhausted, is slightly more impressive than a single good feat against a guy who later subdues Vader completely.Well done for changing the goalposts there lel, your point was in regards to Kun attacking them, not the other way around. Vader's superior defences have already addressed, and in regards to "subduing Vader completely" is concerned - never happened.
Denial is the first step, Beni.Quite, and the subsequent road to retardation has been mapped out extensively by yourself over the years. 👆
The amulet powered the Temple, not the other way around. 😬😬
The temple was designed to augment and focus the dark side all on its own.
Exar Kun immediately grew more powerful, then went to stalemate Ulic, bedore gaining tremendous dark side powers, before stomping Odan-Urr and becoming even more powerful, gaining tremendous Sith knowledge and achieving his prime. Any kind of amp is absolutely negligible next to this power growth.What about an amp that magnified his hatred one hundred thousand times 😂
Blowing up Lyleks =/= Disintegrating potentially hundreds of Massassi Warriors.Quite, obliterating far more durable targets without the aid of a suped up death ray is much more impressive.
You've yet to provide anything suggesting anything remotely close to that.Sure thing darl, I'd say you should have stuck to the spirit feats and power-scaling, but when they've been debunked beyond belief I can understand your decision. 🙁Evidently. 👆