Qui-Gon Jinn's Lightsaber Skills

Started by samappo1 pages

Qui-Gon Jinn's Lightsaber Skills

I think that Qui-Gon Jinn is quite underrated, not so much when people discuss him against fellow Jedi, but especially his two duels against Maul. In both instances Maul struggled (if that's the appropriate word) against the Jedi Master, and was without doubt a match for Maul.

Jinn was generally regarded as one of the best pure swordsmen the Order had ever seen.

His technique as a pure swordsman made Jinn one of the best the Order had ever seen. This is not a surprise considering his master was Dooku, and Dooku's master was Yoda himself. This is made more impressive in that Jinn was a master of Form IV only, and yet is still placed up there with swordsmen who had mastered multiple if not all forms of lightsaber combat, such as Drallig, Windu and Anoon Bondara.

Anoon Bondara was advanced enough in lightsaber combat to be named Jedi Battle Master. I will use this quote from Wookiepedia but please note this isn't a good source of information, but this passage explains the history of the temple's battle masters:

In both of Bondara's appearances he is described as having lightsaber skills second to none. This has led some to hypothesize that Anoon Bondara was the Jedi Battlemaster prior to Cin Drallig. The information mentioned above, the fact that he was the lightsaber instructor to Jedi Initiates and Padawans such as Obi-Wan Kenobi, and that he died in 32 BBY, the same year Cin Drallig became Battlemaster, are cited by some to support this theory.

From this, it's most likely the Bondara was the battlemaster before Drallig. This places Bondara and Drallig as roughly equals, and implies Bondara to be a master of all seven lightsaber forms, as a battlemaster and instructor would need to be, as Drallig was.

Considering the skillset we have formed for Anoon Bondara, consider this:

Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable.

Despite Bondara being the battlemaster of the temple as well as implied to be master of the seven forms; Jinn (and Mace) were superior duelists to him. This shows that Jinn's application of Form IV was that advanced. This places Jinn above Drallig as well, assuming Bondara and Drallig are roughly equals.

A Twi'lek, with slender head-tails and a heavily muscled upper body, his name was Anoon Bondara, a duelist of unparalleled skill. Qui-Gon engaged him in matches at every opportunity. For a match with Bondara, no matter how brief, was more instructive than twenty contests against lesser opponents.

This implies that Jinn could outspar Bondara briefly in some cases as well.

Bondara's form of choice was Form VII Juyo. This explains one of the reasons why Jinn was so comfortable matching Maul; because Jinn had outdueled battlemasters who's go-to form was Form VII, which was Maul's preferred form.

The fact that Jinn can match Form VII with Form IV can be explained by experience facing it (he engaged Bondara in sparring marches whenever he had the opportunity) as well as influence from Dooku. By this, I mean that Jinn used some elements of Form II in his own technique. We find evidence in this when he fights two combatants and shunts each one aside in order to fight them one at a time, a very Dooku-eque technique. Though I doubt he integrated that much of Form II, at most the addition of feints and shunts to supplement the inherent defensive weaknesses of Form IV. This opinion however is highly speculative.

He also supplemented his Form IV with other fighting techniques as well:

Qui-Gon Jinn's lightsaber may not be as ornate as that of his mentor, Count Dooku, but true to his rebellious ways, he used it to master the same classical fighting techniques as well as untraditional combat forms from across the galaxy.

Assuming 'classical fighting techniques' further corroborates that Jinn mastered Form II techniques from his mentor/master Count Dooku as well as untraditional combat forms.

So this places Jinn above Drallig and Bondara, and he (as I will soon explain how) could match Darth Maul as a lightsaber duelist. Maul is a definitive 8, which would also make Jinn an 8. This also makes sense since Mace is also an 8, and they are both listed as superior swordsmen to Bondara.

Now I will address his two duels with Maul.

Regardless, Qui-Gon had quieted his mind and brought his imposing might to bear against Maul’s agility. He had matched Maul’s furious strokes with a disciplined intensity all his own. In the midst of their no-quarter contest the Jedi had even managed to order the slave boy to flee for the safety of the waiting ship, where Maul had nearly forgotten all about him.

The Force favors this Jedi! Maul recalled thinking.

After all the droids, assassins, gangsters, and soldiers he had vanquished, finally a worthy opponent. Not since he had fought and been defeated by his own Master, Darth Sidious, had Maul been so committed to a challenge.

Here it says that Jinn matched Maul blow to blow. It also displays Jinn's experience in high intensity lightsaber duels, since Jinn remembered Anakin, yet Maul did not.

Obviously, the fact that Jinn was his first worthy opponent (not considering Sidious who is leagues above both) other than gangsters etc. is not surprising, however, Maul was committed to the challenge, which means Jinn matched him.

But he is graceful, this Jedi. The sand doesn't see to hamper him. He is never off balance, no matter where or how I strike.

Despite Jinn facing Maul's Form VII offensive, he did not become unbalanced in the sand, despite every attempt by Maul.

The Jedi meets my first blow, blocking it. He has expected my flying maneuver.

If an opponent can read you, the fight is over. I don't like that the Jedi was perfectly prepared for my first blow. Within seconds, I throw away my usual combinations and strategies. This Jedi seems to know how I will move before I do.

Jinn is so advanced a duelist that he can see what Darth Maul (a solid 8) is going to do before it happens. He even goes as far as to say that the fight was over. However he didn't anticipate Jinn's flagging stamina.

Qui-Gon’s shrewd readiness had almost taken Maul off his guard.

Another example to show how Jinn matched Maul as a lightsaber duelist.

At this point I will point out that in the novelisation, in Jinn's perspective, Maul was:

younger, quicker and stronger than Qui-Gon,

And

The Jedi Master blocked him again and again, but could not find an opening that would give him any chance of escape.

So really, it was mostly experience that let Qui-Gon match Darth Maul blow for blow by knowing what Maul was going to do, despite Form VII being a highly randomised form that used unconnected sequences to confuse adversaries. This feat by Jinn can be attributed to his experience facing Form VII (Bondara) as well as his strength in the force. What makes this even more impressive however, is that every Form VII application is quite different, since the user draws from the styles they learnt.

"There," the Jedi breathed, pointing. They could see Qui-Gon Jinn now, engaged in battle with the dark-garbed, demonic figure. The combatants surged back and forth across the flats, lightsabers flashing brightly with each blow struck, sand and grit swirling in all directions.

This shows that the battle was 'back and forth' and definitely not a one-sided engagement. The open nature of the field of battle would definitely help Jinn due to his reliance on Form IV. This also means Jinn put Maul on the defensive half the time as well.

He had matched Maul’s furious strokes with a disciplined intensity all his own.

Again, here we can prove that Jinn matched Maul.

Then, just when Qui-Gon’s stamina was beginning to flag and the fight was tipping in Maul’s favor, the incomprehensible had occurred: Qui-Gon had fled.

I will note that Darth Maul is slightly better than Jinn, but only due to the Jedi Master's age and reduced stamina. But this only came into effect in both battles during the end stage.

But the horned attacker was already in pursuit, racing out pf the haze and leaping onto the ramp as the ship began to rise. Balanced precariously against the sway of the ship, eyes flaring in rage, he fought to keep his footing.
Qui-Gon attacked at once, rushing the other mam closing with him at the edge of the ramp... The Jedi Master and his adversary filled the viewscreen commanding the rampway entrance, faces tight with determination and streaked with sweat.
...On the screen, Anakin watched Qui-Gon Jinn step back, level his lightsaber, and swing a powerful, two-handed blow at his attacker. The horned man blocked it, but only barely, and in the process lost his balance completely. The blow's force swept him away...

This is more impressive for Darth Maul than Jinn, but regardless, Jinn immediately followed up on Maul's attempt to enter the ship, and Jinn was able to overpower Maul, though granted Maul was on the lower end of the ramp.

Now for the duel of fates.

Beyond, the Sith Lord worked at binding up his wounds, a series of burns and slashes marked by charred tears in his dark clothing. He was backed to the edge of the chamber beyond, keeping a close watch on Qui-Gon..."

Maul got injured during the fight, multiple times. Which means that Jinn and or Jinn + Kenobi penetrated his defenses on multiple occasions. Not exactly a clear sign of an easy fight, especially if the majority of these wounds happened when Jinn and Maul were fighting alone.

Also note that Maul was "keeping a close watch on Qui-Gon...".

Qui-Gon was on his feet as well, his own weapon flashing. He catapulted through the opening that led into the melting pit and closed with the Sith Lord, forcing him back, out of the passageway completely.

Note the use of the word force. Maul before this was definitely leading Jinn on towards the melting pit, but this passage indicates that Maul was getting beaten back forcefully as well, at least in this point in time.

He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.

Then Darth Maul back-flipped across the melting pit, giving himself some space in which to recover, gaining just enough time to assume a new battle stance. Qui-Gon was on him in an instant, covering the distance separating them in a rush, hammering into the Sith Lord anew.

These passages show that Jinn matched Maul. Sure Maul won, Jinn was old had flagging stamina. But to make Maul 'stymied' (to prevent or hinder the progress of) and 'uncertain' about how the fight was going to play out is quite impressive. Even when Maul back-flipped across the pit, he could barely assume a battle stance before Jinn was already engaging him again.

At his best he could keep Maul constantly on the defensive (granted this was after he meditated to go all out). Now I'm not going to factor in Form IV's weakness of limited room too much since Maul was also hindered as he couldn't use his saber-staff as effectively, as well as the fact that Jinn was continuously staying close to Maul to hinder Maul's weapon further. But granted, it did contribute to Jinn's defeat in that room. I would however attribute 80% of it and the main reason as being that he had fought for too long, and he didn't have the stamina to continue. Maul, who was younger did.

But there is no way, in my opinion, and from the evidence I have displayed here, that one could call Maul 'way better' than Qui-Gon. In fact, Jinn matched Maul and gave him a true challenge.

If Jinn and Maul were placed on neutral ground, both being fresh (Jinn on Tantooine had walked/ran all the way from the town to the ship) where he'd have space to use Form IV more effectively; until the fight got to the 15-20 minute mark, I would give Jinn a 50/50 chance of winning. But once he starts tiring, Maul slowly gains more and more of an edge.

So either Jinn takes Maul before the time is up, or Maul at that point will only gain more and more of an advantage.

Thoughts?

Nice to see people bring up End Game. Qui-Gon is a near-equal of Maul's bar stamina. 👆

I'd go further and say Qui-Gon is Maul's equal bar stamina.

But thank you.

Read my Plagueis one that I posted today as well if you want 🙂

He's not. The TPM novel establishes Maul as being faster and stronger, and remember that Qui-Gon only equalled an injured Maul on Tatooine.

That being said, that injury was close to negligible, so the difference is, again, very slight.

I've seen the Plagueis one. That was good too.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He's not. The TPM novel establishes Maul as being faster and stronger, and remember that Qui-Gon only equalled an injured Maul on Tatooine.

That being said, that injury was close to negligible, so the difference is, again, very slight.

I've seen the Plagueis one. That was good too.

The words I found in the novel and what I discuss were younger, quicker and stronger than Qui-Gon...

But just because Maul is younger, quicker and stronger doesn't mean they aren't equals. I think Jinn's experience levels the playing field in these departments, hence why I call them equals bar stamina. That's just my opinion though.

As for the injury, I wouldn't consider it since Jinn was tired already from running, So either they even out or gives advantage to Maul, since Jinn was running in the Tantooine heat for quite a while.

So no qualms with the Plagueis one? No one has challenged me yet really.

Jinn's experience wasn't a factor in their fights, though; Maul's physicals were. Experience generally doesn't matter unless your opponent is inexperienced. Also, is there an explicit source for how much Jinn tired as a result of running through the desert? I've been looking for one. The extent to which he was tired is probably also important.

Maul's strength and agility weren't enough for Maul to gain the edge because Jinn was capable enough to nullify them through skill and experience. Since they even out they don't become a factor until Jinn becomes significantly tired as he did at the end of the duel of fates.

I don't think any source states how tired he was. We can assume it had at least enough of an impact to nullify Darth Maul's minor injury, if not more. But even if both those cancel out for argument's sake, they still fought as equals. I mean, Maul was visibly concerned in both fights, especially the first, because Jinn could anticipate every attack he made.

Again, nowhere is Jinn's experience suggested to be a factor, and there's no reason for it to be a factor against one of the most highly trained Sith in history. Qui-Gon hasn't even had an encounter with someone like Maul before; the closest he had were his fights with Xanatos - otherwise his experience would be based on sparring matches. Whereas Maul has fought several Jedi and has been appropriately trained for fighting and killing Jedi as Sidious notes in TPM.

By contrast, Qui-Gon immediately notes that Maul, even when injured, was faster and stronger than he was, and TCSWE claims that he couldn't physically compete with Maul. That's a very clear and definite advantage, whereas Qui-Gon's experience is never noted to be a threat to Maul in any source.

being able to anticipate every move maul makes would likely be a byproduct of experience in fairness

Maul was able to do the same to Qui-Gon, so it's not all that important. In saber duels, both combatants generally anticipate their opponents' moves; if you can't but they can, you get a nice little SWR Maul vs Obi-Wan situation going on.

fair

Also, it doesn't matter if maul anticipated what kenobi did or vice versa, he was always going to lose:
''When pressed, because Obi-Wan is protecting someone else in the end, he does fight. But because he is so true and knows who he is in that moment, you can’t defeat that''

That's a figure of speech, lol.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Again, nowhere is Jinn's experience suggested to be a factor, and there's no reason for it to be a factor against one of the most highly trained Sith in history. Qui-Gon hasn't even had an encounter with someone like Maul before; the closest he had were his fights with Xanatos - otherwise his experience would be based on sparring matches. Whereas Maul has fought several Jedi and has been appropriately trained for fighting and killing Jedi as Sidious notes in TPM.

By contrast, Qui-Gon immediately notes that Maul, even when injured, was faster and stronger than he was, and TCSWE claims that he couldn't physically compete with Maul. That's a very clear and definite advantage, whereas Qui-Gon's experience is never noted to be a threat to Maul in any source.

I think the fact that Maul had all these credentials and advantages yet still got matched by Jinn is impressive on the Jedi Master's part, and the reason why I wrote this was to bring to light some of his feats, since he is usually underrated.

The only advantage being stronger and faster than Jinn gave Maul would become apparent after 15-20 minutes when Jinn could no longer keep up. Before that though, those 'advantages' didn't stop the Jedi Master from matching Darth Maul and giving him a run for his money.

You can't really say sparring matches aren't effective. The best swordsmen of the Jedi Order in the prequel trilogy where considered some of the best in the history of the order in various sources, and they never (other than some select cases like Xanatos) engaged Sith/Dark Jedi. Sparring was an effective tool just as much as live combat, and you can improve quicker. Tenebrous/Plagueis/Venamis/Sidious mastered lightsaber combat through sparring. So I wouldn't discredit sparring necessarily.

True, his experience isn't noted to be a threat, but as I quoted from the novelisation, Maul viewed Jinn as a worthy challenge finally, and in the duel of fates Jinn stymied the Sith Lord and even appeared to be uncertain as to the outcome of the fight as he was pushed back by Jinn's offensive.

Throughout the Jedi Apprentice Novels, Jinn displays Shien tendencies(pin-point accurate blaster redirection) and even some Djem So tendencies a well, though to a lesser degree.

Just something to add to the old man's repertoire

I used to read them in primary school, can't remember them now. Thanks though 🙂

Originally posted by samappo
I used to read them in primary school, can't remember them now. Thanks though 🙂

I went through all 32 books, twice in two weeks.

That shit is forever etched into my brain. So no problem lmao

Nice 🙂 hahaha