ROTJ Luke vs Vader Thoughts

This duel has got be my overall favorite duel in the movies. Imo Luke is nowhere near Vader's level of skill in terms of lightsaber combat. At this point in time, I'd call Luke's style an imitation of Vader's Form V that he made through fighting Vader on Bespin and copying the style, along with some Ataru training from Yoda and basics of Shii-Cho from Kenobi.

Essentially, it appears Luke had an ability to fight an opponent and then consequently imitate their style, since he was such a prodigy in the force. This is confirmed in Fightsaber. Luke's style was mainly him mirroring Vader's Form V.

Throughout the whole fight Vader isn't on his A game. He didn't want to kill Luke, and he was holding back. In the first part of the fight Luke is enraged, and gets amped enough to basically force Vader back and kick him down the stairs, mirroring his fathers style.

It's interesting to note the kick though. Using your whole body, not just your lightsaber, is a core element of Form IV Ataru. Yoda must have trained Luke in some aspects of it, especially that element. Vader comments 'Obi Wan has taught you well.' Obviously thinking it was Kenobi that taught him that Ataru aspect (Kenobi was an Ataru specialist until a little after AoTC).

When Luke calms down, he adopts a defensive stance. Now that he isn't amped, he appears to have some trouble holding Vader's power blows back. Ultimately though, Luke avoids fighting Vader entirely, trying to talk his father back to the light.

In the last part, Luke gets amped again, even more than before, and mirrors Vader's Form V, which again is confirmed by Fightsaber. You can even see it in the actual movie. Luke is countering and following up with power blows. Vader again however is not on his A game.

I like to compare this last part to Anakin when he was amped to a 9. With the dark side he was basically on Sidious' level. Luke obviously, who had less training, didn't get 9 fighting Vader, but he got amped enough to beat down Vader, although Vader again was not on his A game.

But then, did Anakin have the same ability to mirror his opponent's style? Is this specific to Luke? Or did Luke only do it because he lacked real training and therefore needed to mirror Vader in order to form a personal style?

Legends Luke beat him fair and square.

Not sure about Canon Luke.

Explain?

Vader is noted to be fighting harder than he ever has in the comic, and he was willing to kill his son if nothing else worked, according to the novelization.

Luke is definitely the superior swordsman in Legends, by the time of ROTJ. I think Vader still has him beat in the Force, but the result of the duel speaks for itself.

As far as canon goes, I honestly think Vader was holding back.

It's stated that Luke beat him fair and square in Legends, IIRC.
+the Sources Az mentioned.

It's been stated in Canon that Vader was not at his best during the RotJ fight.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's been stated in Canon that Vader was not at his best during the RotJ fight.

Even within the movie.

Originally posted by Azronger
Vader is noted to be fighting harder than he ever has in the comic, and he was willing to kill his son if nothing else worked, according to the novelization.

For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

...

"I will not fight you, Father," Luke stated. "You are unwise to lower your defenses," Vader warned. His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... Then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.

-RotJ novel

Canon Luke destroyed him. Vader looked pitiful as soon as Luke had a reason behind himself to fight for. Irony.

Luke legitimately defeated Vader in Legends and 6 months later it was said Lukes power power in the Force according to Cronal surpassed Vaders in Shadows of Mindor.

Okay so we look at Legends then, how did Luke become a better swordsman than Vader before the fight? If Vader was trying, then obviously it must have been Luke being able to mirror Form V and use his amp from emotions and pure force ability to stomp Vader.

Cos Vader obviously has the better pure skill as the swordsman.

Vader has better technical skill, Luke has better innate skill. Besides, he's trained under Yoda for several months to the point that he could challenge Vader(Fightsaber and Shadows of the Empire note this) and now he's further enhanced his skills by studying from Obi-Wan's journals. I'd imagine a considerable growth in skill would be in order.

Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force also states that Luke had the strength to challenge Vader in ESB but was ultimately too hasty.

Vader has better technical skill, Luke has better innate skill. Besides, he's trained under Yoda for several months to the point that he could challenge Vader(Fightsaber and Shadows of the Empire note this) and now he's further enhanced his skills by studying from Obi-Wan's journals. I'd imagine a considerable growth in skill would be in order.

I guess that's what I was saying; in that Luke had an innate ability to mirror his adversaries form. So he trained with Yoda for several months? I guess that makes more sense now.

Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force also states that Luke had the strength to challenge Vader in ESB but was ultimately too hasty.

Less than a year of training and Luke could contend with Vader. I guess that's more due to his Skywalker lineage and his innate force potential than anything else, which makes sense.