Did Sheev throw the fight vs Windu? (CANON)

In Legends, it's explained that Windu only won thanks to Vaapad and whatnot, and even then it's still possible Palpatine threw it.

But in Canon, we have no indication of Vaapad being involved, and it's unlikely Vaapad works like it did in Legends anyway.

So, is Mace legitimately capable of beating Palpatine in Canon in the fashion we see in ROTS, or did Palpatine throw the fight?

My thoughts:

I've always been a firm believer that Sheev let Mace win. The speed and skill Sheev wields versus Yoda is far greater than what he does against Mace. However, that doesn't necessarily mean he would have won otherwise. I think Sheev let Mace win so that he could dictate and control the situation in which he was defeated. If Sheev legitimately fought Mace, he would potentially be more vulnerable to outright dying (note he originally opted to flee against Yoda than risk a battle-to-the-death). Nevertheless, I still think Sheev would have won for a majority, especially if he used his Force abilities to the fullest. I don't think he wanted to take that gamble though, especially considering Anakin's turn is far more important than slaying Mace himself (hell, Anakin seeing Palpatine standing over Mace's corpse may very well jeopardize Anakin's fall completely).

Don't Gillards explanations count for canon?

Please post?

I think he legitimately lost, but would win the vast majority.

Until some new information comes out regarding the loss, sheev lost fairly.

I think what happened is that Sidious tried toying with Mace but it backfired badly. You can see at the beginning of the fight how he gets a few opportunities to kill but doesn't. After the saber-lock Mace gets pissed and they start fighting evenly.

In otherwords, Sheev got arrogant

Mace is just better

I think Mace won fair and square, but Sidious would win the majority under normal circumstances. If Sidious had intentionally thrown the fight, the movie would have made it clearer to the audience that he did so. An in depth analysis shouldn't be necessary to prove that he threw the fight, in my opinion

Originally posted by Rebel95
If Sidious had intentionally thrown the fight, the movie would have made it clearer to the audience that he did so

I'm honestly unsure what to make of this fight, tbh.

On one hand, Mace would've killed Sheev had Anakin not arrived at that exact moment, and if he purposely threw the fight for Anakin to arrive at that precise moment and observe how Mace was about to kill him but failed by a couple of seconds, his plan would've been an utter failure with an incredibly high risk.

Sheev does not at all strike me as someone who would generally risk so much when the outcome directly impacts whether he lives or dies.

That said, I am still unsure. I might be leaning towards Sheev getting a little bit arrogant at the beginning of the fight and then getting overwhelmed afterwards.

Originally posted by Petrus
his plan would've been an utter failure with an incredibly high risk.

Lucas has even drawn parallels between the two scenes in interviews.

Really? Well... shit. I don't know then lol

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Palpatine took the same chance with Luke in RotJ. Vader stepped in again.

Eh, I think it was considerably different. In ROTS, he underestimated Mace's strength compared to his own, and that was his downfall. 1-versus-1 kinda deal he screwed up.

In ROTJ, he didn't count on Vader turning on him, especially after the confrontation Vader had against Luke in ESB. It was direct betrayal by his most loyal follower, whereas in ROTS he just got overconfident with his abilities.

EDIT - Even with GL drawing parallels, I don't think they were that similar tbh.

I'm referring to the scene where Luke goes to strike Palpatine and Mace goes to strike Palpatine.

Both instances have Palpatine trusting Anakin to intervene.

Sheev underestimating Mace's strength is a theory and not relevant to the parallel.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I'm referring to the scene where Luke goes to strike Palpatine and Mace goes to strike Palpatine.

Both instances have Palpatine trusting Anakin to intervene.

Ah. My mistake, then. Still don't think it's the same, tho.

Anakin wasn't actually in the room. For him to throw the fight, he would've needed to have a practically perfect calculation of how much time it would take for Anakin to arrive and coordinate that with Mace preparing to deal the final blow. I think it's too much.

Vader, on the other hand, was standing right there next to Palps when Luke attempted to kill him, and obviously by that time he'd become his most loyal and trusted servant.

Originally posted by Petrus
Anakin wasn't actually in the room. For him to throw the fight, he would've needed to have a practically perfect calculation of how much time it would take for Anakin to arrive and coordinate that with Mace preparing to deal the final blow. I think it's too much.

Palpatine used lightning to stall the rest.

Meh, I still think it's far-fetched. But who knows, could be.

Palpatine let Mace win; he wanted to put Anakin into a do or die situation where he'd have to pick either Palpatine and in essence his wifes life or the Jedi. the facts support this:

1. He ALLOWS Anakin to go and tell Mace that he is Sidious, he in fact encourages this.

2. While Anakin is in the meditation chamber Sidious is heard communicating to him the urgency of his life; if Palpatine dies; so does Padme.

3. Sidious effortlessly kills 3 Jedi masters who are all said to be the best swordsmen in the order.

4. He had Mace at blade point and didn't press the attack; this shows that he's trying to prolong the fight until Anakin can arrive.

5. When Mace "disarms" Sidious it just so happens to coincide EXACTLY with Anakin entering the room; all Anakin sees is Mace holding his blade to a frail scared old man trying to back away from the conflict. If you watch the film this is blatantly clear that when Anakin enters the room Sidious had JUST been disarmed and was scampering away from Mace.

6. Only when Mace tries to arrest Sidious does he actually attack with his lightning, again he's trying to force a decision from Anakin and being jailed wont produce that effect, only after the lightning attack does Mace resolve to kill Palpatine and finally force Anakins hand.

7. Sidious plays possum, claiming that his powers are weak and goading Anakin into action; once Anakin makes his fateful decision, Sidious springs back into action killing Mace.

And for those claiming that this is all too convenient, its well established that Sidious can see into the future and change his plans accordingly; this ability may have failed him come RTOJ but he was in his prime for this during the events of his ascension.

Good points^