Originally posted by cdtm
That doesn't change the fact Goku was in blue mode. Blue >>>>> any SSJ. A holding back blue is > any full power SSJ. Otherwise, why not have him fight in SSJ 1, 2, or 3?
Nope. That depends on Goku. SSJ2 or SSJ3 are powered up versions of super saiyan. SSB is not powered up version of SSJ, but completely new form. And since Akira said blue means total control, Goku can put any power level in his blue form. In his blue form he has access to his full ki and total control over it.
And Frieza wins easily.
Originally posted by Henry_PymNo. And I'm not concerned with whether you intend to "seriously argue" with me or not. But if you do, go back and address what I've actually said and also answer the two questions I posed to you.
Question before I seriously argue with you, do you think Goku was trying to defeat 17 in that "fight?"
Originally posted by InedianThe problem with your explanation is that there's no reason to go SSB in the first place if Goku is only going to use levels of ki output which he has access to in states that cost less stamina or no stamina at all. This is the reason Goku and Vegeta did not use SSB throughout most of the U6 tournament arc. They saved it for Hit.
Nope. That depends on Goku. SSJ2 or SSJ3 are powered up versions of super saiyan. SSB is not powered up version of SSJ, but completely new form.And since Akira said blue means total control, Goku can put any power level in his blue form. In his blue form he has access to his full ki and total control over it.
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
The problem with your explanation is that there's no reason to go SSB in the first place if Goku is only going to use levels of ki output which he has access to in states that cost less stamina or no stamina at all. This is the reason Goku and Vegeta did not use SSB throughout most of the U6 tournament arc. They saved it for Hit.
In other words, Toriyama had Goku go blue for a reason. Writer's don't do things without a reason, unless they're bad writers.
Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin...you answered your own question.
No. And I'm not concerned with whether you intend to "seriously argue" with me or not. But if you do, go back and address what I've actually said and also answer the two questions I posed to you.
If Goku wasn't fighting seriously, that means you can't infer he can hang with him while serious...
Now your second question seems pretty self explanatory, as I literally explained it in my post but SSJ3 causes alot of collateral damage and Goku was fighting a ranger in a nature preserve so that is my reasoning to why Goku didn't try it. It's hilarious to argue Goku was using more power against 17 than he used fighting Fat Buu in the Buu arc.
Originally posted by Henry_PymThe argument was that 17 could hang with SSB Goku, not that he could hang with him while serious. A serious Goku would be one using SSB/Kaoiken x 10 and maybe some warp kamehamehas if we're taking CIS into account.
...you answered your own question.If Goku wasn't fighting seriously, that means you can't infer he can hang with him while serious...
As far as SSB Goku alone is concerned, we clearly saw him and 17 going at it and exerting themselves in pretty even fashion. Thus, it stands to reason that 17 can hang with SSB Goku.
Now your second question seems pretty self explanatory, as I literally explained it in my post but SSJ3 causes alot of collateral damage. Goku was fighting a ranger in a nature preserve so that is my reasoning to why Goku didn't try it.When you say SSJ3 "causes alot of collateral damage", what are you talking about exactly? If you're suggesting that it's a specific characteristic of the form, I've never seen anything to suggest that. Moreover, your answer is contradicted by their very fight. Goku specifically takes the fight to the skies so that they can fight without hurting any animals. By your reasoning, SSJ3 would've been the go-to option the moment the fight reached that point.
It's hilarious to argue Goku was using more power against 17 than he used fighting Fat Buu in the Buu arc.How is that hilarious if 17 is stronger than Fat Buu from the Buu arc (not to mention the current arc)? Don't get me wrong. I do find the writers' frequent shitting on power levels to be a real hoot ( 😂 ), but you seem to actually be suggesting that 17 hasn't gotten tremendously stronger since the Cell arc. That's just not the case. The dialogue throughout episodes 86-87 literally confirms this.
Originally posted by carver9A fight they were both holding back in..
Lol...people still taking Goku fight serious against people he was obviously holding back against. Hilarious.
And unlike with the Roshi and Krillin who were full powered and still at minimum 400x weaker than Goku despite all the joking, 17 made Goku transform into ssb to keep up with him, and Goku still didn't get to see the full extent of 17's power.
And we never got to see Buu go all out, because apparently it's useless anyway to care what he can do.