Originally posted by leonidasThe confrontation is basically J'onn telepathically freezing Black Adam [explicitly saying that he has taken control over his bodily functions], but still alowing him the 'priviliege of thought'. Adam goes all angry face and J'onn starts to struggle saying "your mind..so strong" allowing BA to scream SHAZAM and zap J'onn. Then he does it again. Then Black Adam says that J'onn is still trying to regain control [but he is a mess at this point], and gives him the memories of all those he killed, traumatizing J'onn.
i'm not sure it was just mental state was it? didn't he basically drown him in his darkness or something at one point? i mean his 'general' darkness? either way, not a feat billy could duplicate in the same way obviously, but seems he would have the willpower to prevent a tp win. guess what i would need to see are times cap was mindraped, and by whom. i seem to recall him being able to shrug off control in the past, but i know there were a couple times he WAS eff'd by tp. if the evidence says he falls more often to tp than not, i'll concede mm takes it. but cap is considerably stronger, likely considerably faster, far more durable and a single charged blow lands, or a blast of lightning hits and mm goes nighty-nighty. the only way mm can win this IS through tp. like i said, if there is enough evidence to show billy being so vulnerable, i'll agree with you. if he really is that vulnerable to tp though, it would be...kinda sad.
/shrug
Now, I have 3 problems with this, and how it applies to Captain Marvel:
a). Would things have gone different if J'onn didn't give him the 'privilege of thought'? What if he had tried to to MORE than just keep him in place? Which brings me to my next point..
b). Martian Manhunter isn't just 'I can read/control our mind' - he can literally pull the entire Justice League along with Spectre to the astral plane:
https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2647101-1.png
https://static.comicvine.com/api/image/original/2647102-2.png
He could just mind-dump Captain Marvel.
c). Captain Marvel doesn't have the feats to compete. J'onn humiliates characters who ACTUALLY have ridiculous telepathic resistance feats, and Billy isn't among the group. The burden of proof would have to be on Billy's side, and he doesn't have anything.
i agree 100% burden of proof is on billy's side, which is why i was asking if he has any note-worthy feats to suggest he could resist jonn. if he doesn't he loses, pretty simple. it is a bit sad if he has none though. that would really lessen cm in my mind. he could be beaten by any number of characters pretty easily that way if he has no feats--and i freely admit that i can't really come up with any off the top of my head, so....barring some showings, i guess i....don't really have much of a leg to stand on as regards my initial assessment. 🙁
yeah, i know that but didn't bring it up because i think it was more magic-based control than regular tp-style control. and cm is ridiculous vs magic. we'd need some proof of him handling other standard tp users and i can't think of any instances at all. hell, he seems to have very rarely faced off against any even.
http://bp2.blogger.com/_tYiCGgNLJ8c/RtWJJ-lompI/AAAAAAAACKo/maYwfvJIQDI/s1600-h/fight0147-c.jpg
http://secretearths.blogspot.com/2007/08/black-adam-versus-captain-marvel-black.html?m=1
Here it is.
With bitter efficiency, Adam makes psychic contact with the waiting Brainwave, giving the order to act upon his "lock" on Captain Marvel.Having telepathically maneuvered his way around Solomon and the other influences in Marvel's mind; Brainwave forces the hero to utter the magic keyword that calls down the lightning of the wizard Shazam, and transforms him back into his pubescent alter-ego, Billy Batson!
Brainwave Jr. forced Billy to say the word.
I believe this is the same Brainwave Maxima punked (And while powerful, J'onn has been established as being a notch above in JLA Death of Superman, when he was disguised as Bloodwynd.)
Originally posted by leonidasIt'a also hard to argue the fact that, ignoring everything J''onn has ever done and Cap doesn't have the feats of resisitng, at the very least, J'onn can make Cap say Shazam, then KO Billy.
there was also some allusion to the fact that braniwave worked around solomon's influence or something? not sure how true that is. regardless, it's hard to prove given his lack of battles against tp'ers.
