The Hotlander vs Mace Windu

Started by Beniboybling2 pages

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'll drop the film point then.

Which is factually wrong per both the film and novel, lmfao. It's hyperbole for him being shocked at how quickly Palpatine cut them down.

Or do you actually think Mace was moving around and parrying strikes from Sheev without realizing it was happening? 😂

Call it what you like it's still clear from all sources that he was too slow, even in the movie Sidious cuts down Tinn and Kolar before he does anything.

I see no reason to believe he'd do any better than Dooku did against Yoda, if not worse tbh.

Your repeated neglections of my points on Mace being held to Yoda's level by a variety of Legends sources as well as bordering on 9 per Gillard and being able to compete with Sheev per Lucas seem to be particularly telling. You can't argue against facts. 👆
I addressed Gillard, Lucas's statement doesn't conflict with anything because he can compete with Sidious - using Vaapad, and I'd rather prefer see these quotes comparing him to Yoda before I comment on that.

Yeah, this is Legends where Windu's performance was highly circumstantial. Even if he did compete with Sidious under very specific circumstances, he is in no way nearly as good as him in sabers.

Mace stomps

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Call it what you like it's still clear from all sources that he was too slow, even in the movie Sidious cuts down Tinn and Kolar before he does anything.

I see no reason to believe he'd do any better than Dooku did against Yoda, if not worse tbh.

I addressed Gillard, Lucas's statement doesn't conflict with anything because he can compete with Sidious - using Vaapad, and I'd rather prefer see these quotes comparing him to Yoda before I comment on that.

1. Obviously Palpatine was still faster. He cuts down Kolar before Mace can intervene (that's not to say Mace couldn't react as the film clearly shows he could), then spins away from Mace to stab Tiin, and Mace was obviously helpless to stop that (the novel version and Agen and Saesee coming forward so they were more prone and Mace couldn't protect them there either). In the film, you clearly see Mace changing his stance before Sidious even manages the first strike. He wasn't unable to react. 👆 And given that in the film he retreats slightly, not to mention not expecting Palpatine's sheer speed/ferocity (hence the hyperbole for him "not realizing what was happening"😉, he wasn't able to stop Agen's death. And again even if he moved forwards upon Agen's death, Sidious was spinning away from him to strike Tiin, which he obviously couldn't stop. It's not irreconcilable.

2. I didn't say he'd do better. I said he can do something similar; i.e. compete. Which he can, per Word of God. Although him being on the border rather than just an 8 like Dooku makes it entirely possible that he would do better.

3. You gave a rationale for him not normally being a 9, which I played along with. You've said nothing in relation to him being on the border, though. As for the Yoda quotes, I'll get them for you eventually, but I won't be around for a couple of days. You can ask Ant or someone else in the meantime.

Originally posted by SunRazer
1. Obviously Palpatine was still faster. He cuts down Kolar before Mace can intervene (that's not to say Mace couldn't react as the film clearly shows he could), then spins [b]away from Mace to stab Tiin, and Mace was obviously helpless to stop that (the novel version and Agen and Saesee coming forward so they were more prone and Mace couldn't protect them there either). In the film, you clearly see Mace changing his stance before Sidious even manages the first strike. He wasn't unable to react. 👆 And given that in the film he retreats slightly, not to mention not expecting Palpatine's sheer speed/ferocity (hence the hyperbole for him "not realizing what was happening"😉, he wasn't able to stop Agen's death. And again even if he moved forwards upon Agen's death, Sidious was spinning away from him to strike Tiin, which he obviously couldn't stop. It's not irreconcilable. [/b]
Not sure what source you're referring to exactly. I assume the movie. But as I said in the film he does nothing. Yes he enters a ready stance before Sidious attacks, but that only makes his subsequent lack of reaction more damning.

To be clear what I'm saying here is that while Kolar and Tinn are being cut down, he doesn't appear to move on Sidious at all, only reacting when Sidious comes for him. And there is a big difference between failing to intercept his opponent and failing to respond at all.

This corroborating with tertiary sources.

2. I didn't say he'd do better. I said he can do something similar; i.e. compete. Which he can, per Word of God. Although him being on the border rather than just an 8 like Dooku makes it entirely possible that he would do better.
I wouldn't call that competing, not at least according to secondary sources. To compete is to suggest a level of rivalry or parity between the two. But Sidious is far ahead.

Originally posted by SunRazer
3. You gave a rationale for him not normally being a 9, which I played along with. You've said nothing in relation to him being on the border, though.
That rationale being Gillard's yes. I'm sure you can find the interview. And being on the border I assume is in relation to his ability to switch. But being on the border isn't much anyway, as we know there are huge differences between tiers.

As for the Yoda quotes, I'll get them for you eventually, but I won't be around for a couple of days. You can ask Ant or someone else in the meantime.
Are you referring to the quotes from the Fact Files?

Mace can compete in a saber duel with Sids. I doubt he can compete as a Force user, though.

Mace, great fight
HoT, solid fight
Outlander

1. Mace
2. Mace with difficulty
3. Mace with more difficulty

HoT.

Nah Nova.

Mace can compete with Sidious as per GL when Vaapad had yet to be established.

Vaapad, later introduced, provided an explanation to how this was possible.

That's what the EU does - provides details and fills in the gap.

Hotlander.

Mace easily

Mace
HoT
HoT destroys

lmao