Mace Windu and Obi Wan Kenobi vs Shimrra Jamaane and Tsavong Lah

Originally posted by AncientPower
She has a massive increase of combative prowess in the following novels. So yeah, going from sub-High Council tier -at her own admission no less- to equal in combat to anybody in the Jedi Order, kinda significant.

What she admits is irrelevant, given her feats and hype at the time are > most of the Council, unless you'd have me think Cilghal is >/~ Jaina, which is moronic.

Regardless, the "kinda significant" power-growth would, at best, make her Jacen's equal, hardly his superior.

Originally posted by AncientPower
It's a mix of his perspective and the actual narrator, sure, doesn't render it moot at all. Nor does his performance actually contradict this, he basically outsmarted him and managed to survive losing.

His performance does indeed contradict this. If Mace on his best day, i.e. RotS Mace, couldn't hope to beat Vastor, then Mace so considerably pre prime and under such circumstances would've gotten two-shotted.

Originally posted by AncientPower
The circumstances you point out are rendered irrelevant by the fact that it outright states, lightsaber or no, he'd lose in a straight combat.

You put too much stock into subjective character opinions. Mace's opinion is hardly infallible.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Not that it matters, Vastor not even standing a chance against Vader.

Yet he contended with someone on approaching Vader's level in the form of Luke...

There's nothing that restricts Jaina to being below or at Caedus level as of fotj as there's nothing that restricts Kenobi to being below maul as of rots as their's nothing that restricts the outlander to being sub arcann as of kotfe as there's nothing that restricts mace to being below or equal to dooku or kar vastor as of rots.

Jaina is indicated to be luke level by both luke and herself, is shown to be luke-level in their performances against the same oppoenents, and is holistically potrayed as luke level as of her prime.

FOT Jaina's Luke level, Caedus isn't. FOTJ Jaina>Caedus

Bringing up pre-prime versions of a character isn't relevant. There's nothing at all stopping Jaina from undergoing massive growth in the years between.
Jaina faced a massive mace vs sids esque and Kenobi vs Anakin esque emotional confrontation in facing her brother, and faced numerous confrontations throughout fotj up until her prime in ascension where she's been consistently shown as a luke level combatant, placing her well above caedus who luke has beat in about three moves while hindered

She isn't a Luke level combatant, lmao. She thinks of herself as such, but that's never truly indicated.

Sure, she managed to coordinate with Luke just fine and take down opponents as fast as Luke did, but both Jacen and Jaina did that during the Vong War with Luke when they raided Shimrra's palace, yet neither could even see Luke move.
This is done by something called Battle Meld, something Luke always uses when he's fighting with allies who are considerably below his level.

Also, Jacen's potential is > Jaina's, so just facing random fodder since her brother died and going through one emotionally-traumatic event(as oppose to Caedus going through several in the process of becoming Caedus) is not going to be enough to elevate her so far ahead of her LotF self.

Also, Luke never beat Caedus in three moves.

Originally posted by MythLord
She isn't a Luke level combatant, lmao. She thinks of herself as such, but that's never truly indicated.

Sure, she managed to coordinate with Luke just fine and take down opponents as fast as Luke did, but both Jacen and Jaina did that during the Vong War with Luke when they raided Shimrra's palace, yet neither could even see Luke move.
This is done by something called Battle Meld, something Luke always uses when he's fighting with allies who are considerably below his level.

Also, Jacen's potential is > Jaina's, so just facing random fodder since her brother died and going through one emotionally-traumatic event(as oppose to Caedus going through several in the process of becoming Caedus) is not going to be enough to elevate her so far ahead of her LotF self.

Also, Luke never beat Caedus in three moves.

Originally posted by MythLord
She isn't a Luke level combatant, lmao. She thinks of herself as such, but that's never truly indicated.

Sure, she managed to coordinate with Luke just fine and take down opponents as fast as Luke did, but both Jacen and Jaina did that during the Vong War with Luke when they raided Shimrra's palace, yet neither could even see Luke move.
This is done by something called Battle Meld, something Luke always uses when he's fighting with allies who are considerably below his level.

Also, Jacen's potential is > Jaina's, so just facing random fodder since her brother died and going through one emotionally-traumatic event(as oppose to Caedus going through several in the process of becoming Caedus) is not going to be enough to elevate her so far ahead of her LotF self.

Also, Luke never beat Caedus in three moves.

Quote for them being able to fight as fast as luke?

Originally posted by MythLord
She isn't a Luke level combatant, lmao. She thinks of herself as such, but that's never truly indicated.

Sure, she managed to coordinate with Luke just fine and take down opponents as fast as Luke did, but both Jacen and Jaina did that during the Vong War with Luke when they raided Shimrra's palace, yet neither could even see Luke move.
This is done by something called Battle Meld, something Luke always uses when he's fighting with allies who are considerably below his level.

Also, Jacen's potential is > Jaina's, so just facing random fodder since her brother died and going through one emotionally-traumatic event(as oppose to Caedus going through several in the process of becoming Caedus) is not going to be enough to elevate her so far ahead of her LotF self.

Also, Luke never beat Caedus in three moves.

Originally posted by MythLord
She isn't a Luke level combatant, lmao. She thinks of herself as such, but that's never truly indicated.

Sure, she managed to coordinate with Luke just fine and take down opponents as fast as Luke did, but both Jacen and Jaina did that during the Vong War with Luke when they raided Shimrra's palace, yet neither could even see Luke move.
This is done by something called Battle Meld, something Luke always uses when he's fighting with allies who are considerably below his level.

Also, Jacen's potential is > Jaina's, so just facing random fodder since her brother died and going through one emotionally-traumatic event(as oppose to Caedus going through several in the process of becoming Caedus) is not going to be enough to elevate her so far ahead of her LotF self.

Also, Luke never beat Caedus in three moves.

Quote for them being able to fight as fast as luke

Quote for caedus having more potential? Because I recall luke and Leia, also identical twins being stated to have identical potential and I also recall them Jacen and Jaina fighting as exact equals in their youth for an extensive period of time.

edit: how the heck do you use quick quotes? wtf is this site so damn hard to post crap in

Originally posted by Trocity
Jedi win.

Shimrra is pretty overrated and Tsavong Lah struggles to kill and ultimately dies to a way pre-prime Jaina, prime Jaina being below either member of team 1.