MEDITATION - As A Spiritual Practice - No Dogma Allowed

Originally posted by Digi
I've also invented my own variation where I take a piece of wisdom that is applicable to my life and I "meditate on it." It might be accompanied with breathing exercises, but instead of clearing my mind, my default state is the idea or quote, and it gives me a point to come back to when my mind wanders. The ideas become mantras that can then help in everyday life.

Of course, it is utterly useless when I'm not mindful of this tact in the first place.

@YousufKhan1212: Answer this question w/o words or thoughts: How do you know you're conscious? (Hint: the answer does not begin with, "How am I supposed to answer that with no words or thoughts?"😉

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
^ Thanks for the contribution. Yeah, I wish I could make it a more daily routine, too, because I want to teach my son some techniques at the youngest age possible. Sam Harris' wife actually is involved in teaching children meditation.

Is there an accompanying app for that? 10% Happier? I think I've heard of it, but for some reason I can't find it in the android app store. Yeah...

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/10-happier-mindfulness-guide/id992210239?mt=8

Cool. I like that. You have any examples you're willing to share?

I think making it routine is key. I'm currently eliminating a lot of things from my life to "make room" so that I can make things like meditating and working out into daily practices.

I don't know of an app, sorry. I'm honestly not big on apps.

I do have examples, but most are baked into documents and files I have at home (I'm usually at work during my sporadic visits to KMC). But I literally have a Word document with a couple hundred ideas or quotes that I've pulled mostly from books that have resonated with me, broken into about five different primary categories (habits, outlook/mindset, confidence/motivation, etc.). I'll usually just pick one, sit down, do some breathing techniques, and think about them.

One other thing I like to do that fills a similar role for me is watch ASMR videos. I made a thread about it here on KMC a while back:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=592841

It's used as a sleep aid by many. And while I don't use it for that, I do use it for relaxation in ways that mirror my meditating.

Originally posted by Mindship
Agreed. The right word/phrase/idea (I don't like the term 'afirmation'😉 can help focus the mind and foster productive behavior. As an example, only recently I've put together a "tripolar system" (😛 ) which enables me to keep my cool when driving.

Of course, it is utterly useless when I'm not mindful of this tact in the first place.

@YousufKhan1212: Answer this question w/o words or thoughts: How do you know you're conscious? (Hint: the answer does not begin with, "How am I supposed to answer that with no words or thoughts?"😉

Heh. Never had the driving issue. Maybe I'm wired differently than some, but there are so many things that get to people that are just water off a duck's back for me, so to speak. My issues tend to be more systemic existential issues related to areas of my life like finances and romance. Moment to moment, I tend to do alright keeping perspective, which is something at least.

I remember going down the "how do I know I exist?" rabbit hole during, like, math class in high school one time. Heady stuff. I actually tend to shy away from those sorts of higher-end philosophical inquiries, though. I'm not looking for enlightenment or massive revelations; just, as Dan Harris puts it, 10% more happiness (or productivity, focus, etc.).

You obviously exist. Your existence is the one thing you can be 100% certain of.

The point of answering the question, "How do you know you're conscious?" w/o using words or thoughts, is to *force* the person to attend to whatever it is they're conscious of without automatically going into a verbal/subvocal mode, ie, to force attention to the senses, the here/now, relying entirely (ideally) on the self-evidence of the experience. To answer with (eg), "Well, I know I'm conscious because blah-blah-blah" is to miss the point of the exercise.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
You obviously exist. Your existence is the one thing you can be 100% certain of.

Like I said, it was high school. I tend to agree, though there are likely schools of thought that might disagree, especially depending on how "you" is defined. The idea that there isn't a singular point of consciousness that makes up a "you" is at the heart of a lot of meditative exercises. Which is less about proof of existence as it is about the nature of Self. But that's a bit beyond the purview of this thread, imo.

Originally posted by Mindship
The point of answering the question, "How do you know you're conscious?" w/o using words or thoughts, is to *force* the person to attend to whatever it is they're conscious of without automatically going into a verbal/subvocal mode, ie, to force attention to the senses, the here/now, relying entirely (ideally) on the self-evidence of the experience. To answer with (eg), "Well, I know I'm conscious because blah-blah-blah" is to miss the point of the exercise.

I've played a game - not with much success - of becoming aware of my awareness. Then becoming aware of my awareness of my awareness. And so on. It gets exponentially harder in a hurry. But again, the point is to slow the mind and focus on a single point or idea, then deliberately slide one level deeper when you're ready. It can take a ton of time just to go more than one level down into that.

Originally posted by Digi
I've played a game - not with much success - of becoming aware of my awareness. Then becoming aware of my awareness of my awareness. And so on. It gets exponentially harder in a hurry. But again, the point is to slow the mind and focus on a single point or idea, then deliberately slide one level deeper when you're ready. It can take a ton of time just to go more than one level down into that.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
^ It's easy. A couple good apps with some free content that I mentioned in the OP are "Headspace" and "Calm." (That is if you have a smartphone). Sam Harris has said that he's working on a meditation app. I think I saw that he's beta testing it now, but I think it was just for Apple. I haven't really checked for it on Android yet (I have an Android).

Will the meditation be harmless? I heard there are several dangers of meditation that can mess you up.

Originally posted by YousufKhan1212
Will the meditation be harmless? I heard there are several dangers of meditation that can mess you up.

I suppose there might be some ways to do it wrong and potentially cause more harm than good, but I honestly think that's probably pretty hard to do if you just follow a few simple guided sessions. Guided meditations are extremely useful for beginners and experts alike. So yeah, it's pretty harmless, but if you're doing it for the first time get a good guide like one of the apps mentioned here. The meditations I posted by Sam Harris honestly might be a little advanced for a beginner. If I were you I would start with a simpler session just focusing on breathing and maybe counting breaths, etc. (Well, thinking back I think Harris does incorporate some focused breathing techniques, but he does get a little more technical as it goes.)

Even if I sit and meditate for 10-15 minutes and I really didn't feel like I did very well at it (my mind was just very hard to grab control of for whatever reason), I almost always feel a benefit of some sort, more calm and less mentally chaotic.

Originally posted by Mindship
The point of answering the question, "How do you know you're conscious?" w/o using words or thoughts, is to *force* the person to attend to whatever it is they're conscious of without automatically going into a verbal/subvocal mode, ie, to force attention to the senses, the here/now, relying entirely (ideally) on the self-evidence of the experience. To answer with (eg), "Well, I know I'm conscious because blah-blah-blah" is to miss the point of the exercise.

Yes, meditation is not about understanding things intellectually. It's about feeling them experientially.

Although perhaps you must first understand them intellectually?

Originally posted by Digi
I've played a game - not with much success - of becoming aware of my awareness. Then becoming aware of my awareness of my awareness. And so on. It gets exponentially harder in a hurry. But again, the point is to slow the mind and focus on a single point or idea, then deliberately slide one level deeper when you're ready. It can take a ton of time just to go more than one level down into that.

I think that would make my mind explode. blowup

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Although perhaps you must first understand them intellectually?

Having some conceptual context could also help prevent negative experiences with meditation. Meditation begins as a cognitive deconstruction measure, which can impede egoic defense mechanisms. If one has, say, some repressed trauma or intense emotional experience they've never really dealt with, then one could experience anxiety during meditation, as the defenses protecting the ego from the negative experience are weakened. In those instances, it's generally best to stop meditating and seek some conventional counseling to deal with whatever's causing the meditator to feel anxious.

Originally posted by Mindship
Having some conceptual context could also help prevent negative experiences with meditation. Meditation begins as a cognitive deconstruction measure, which can impede egoic defense mechanisms. If one has, say, some repressed trauma or intense emotional experience they've never really dealt with, then one could experience anxiety during meditation, as the defenses protecting the ego from the negative experience are weakened. In those instances, it's generally best to stop meditating and seek some conventional counseling to deal with whatever's causing the meditator to feel anxious.

Yeah, as someone who has struggled with anxiety and depression a lot, I can see that being an issue. But meditation is actually one of the best ways to overcome anxiety and depression. It will help you disassociate from your thoughts and ultimately decrease the mechanisms of anxiety and depression. Meditation experientially informs you that you are indeed not your thoughts.

The danger is probably minimal and meditation is more than worth a try.

But yeah, I guess only the meditator can really be the judge of whether it's helping or not.

Originally posted by Patient_Leech
Yeah, as someone who has struggled with anxiety and depression a lot, I can see that being an issue. But meditation is actually one of the best ways to overcome anxiety and depression. It will help you disassociate from your thoughts and ultimately decrease the mechanisms of anxiety and depression. Meditation experientially informs you that you are indeed not your thoughts.

The danger is probably minimal and meditation is more than worth a try.

Originally posted by Mindship
I agree. The benefits of meditation have been documented by modern science for decades.

Yes, though it's unfortunately been obfuscated by it often being packaged with decidedly unscientific New Age or spiritual concepts. Sam Harris did a lot to help legitimize the idea of meditation for me. I was like "wait, I actually trust what he says. Why is he talking about hippy crap?!" It was refreshing.

I can't imagine a negative outcome for someone practicing meditation as it's commonly understood and practiced. At worst, it might have no positive affect on a particular individual. So you lose a bit of time.

/shrug

You guys that dabble in meditating, what are your thoughts on astral projection?

Originally posted by Surtur
You guys that dabble in meditating, what are your thoughts on astral projection?

Sounds like comic book nonsense to me, but I'll admit to not having read much about it. I'm also coming at meditation from a very secular viewpoint, so if you're asking about the existence of a spirit or soul, my opinion will differ from many.

Now, I've heard of out of body experiences, which may be what this refers to. That's a legitimate phenomenon, and can be linked to the electrical stimulation of specific regions of the brain, creating the sensation of being out of body. It's very interesting, but explainable through scientific means. You aren't literally outside yourself in any sensory way. Something like it could possibly be achieved through meditative practices, but I don't know that for sure. Drugs could probably get you there more quickly. For me meditation is more about focus and calmness than anything outside our normal sensory input.

Originally posted by Digi
Sounds like comic book nonsense to me, but I'll admit to not having read much about it. I'm also coming at meditation from a very secular viewpoint, so if you're asking about the existence of a spirit or soul, my opinion will differ from many.

Now, I've heard of out of body experiences, which may be what this refers to. That's a legitimate phenomenon, and can be linked to the electrical stimulation of specific regions of the brain, creating the sensation of being out of body. It's very interesting, but explainable through scientific means. You aren't literally outside yourself in any sensory way. Something like it could possibly be achieved through meditative practices, but I don't know that for sure. Drugs could probably get you there more quickly. For me meditation is more about focus and calmness than anything outside our normal sensory input.

I'm an atheist. There can be things you can't explain or that some might perceive as "supernatural" without any kind of omnipotent deity that created everything actually being a thing that exists.

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm an atheist. There can be things you can't explain or that some might perceive as "supernatural" without any kind of omnipotent deity that created everything actually being a thing that exists.

Fair enough, and agreed. But my explanation for out-of-body experiences requires no such concession. It's physiologically explainable.

Are there other types of astral projection? Or, more to the point, is there evidence for these types of experiences that might cause an atheist to pause before chalking it up to stimulation of specific brain regions? This isn't really an area I've studied, and a Google search turns up an odd mix of comic books, D&D references, amusing "how to astral project" tutorials, and links to sites that are New Age hippy as all hell, so it's hard to find a source I'd consider reliable.

Originally posted by Surtur
You guys that dabble in meditating, what are your thoughts on astral projection?

My meditation this week has been "framing" bits of reality. For example: take any area of a desk with objects on it. It's arbitrary, without form or meaning. Now put a mental picture frame around a portion of it...any portion. Now consider the whole of what you framed. Notice how you can perceive relationships between objects, how the totality of what's in the frame can take on a holistic existence that didn't exist before your mental construct.

Rinse and repeat, first with objects. But you can do this as, say, a driving meditation as well. Put conceptual frames around events. It could be obviously connected events (traffic patterns) or unconnected (the weather that day + the surrounding landscape). Simply perceive the relationships, and the way framing (and un-framing) changes your perspective.

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm an atheist. There can be things you can't explain or that some might perceive as "supernatural" without any kind of omnipotent deity that created everything actually being a thing that exists.

Let's try not to derail the topic, please sir.

I wanted to return to this idea for a moment...

Originally posted by Mindship
I've always preferred to meditate in as natural a fashion as possible: simply being conscious of being conscious, whether doing a formal, sit-down session, or going about daily life. To put it another way, I try to stay off autopilot as much as possible.

If there is one thing that we could legitimately call "God" involved in our existence it is the fact of our very consciousness. Our ability to perceive and contemplate ourselves and the world and universe in which we exist is the most unique facet of this existence. So it seems fitting that meditation would lead us to focus on that very consciousness as a means of calming and purifying the mind.

So focus on that which is indescribable and intangible. Focus on "God."