Triggered: Stories to make you mad.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Right so what your saying is that trans bathroom laws are the most high profile trans issue in the media right now, but this doesn't necessarily reflect the reality of their situation.

Cool, how does this prove your point?

Yes he's said that a number of times, as he doesn't really have any other argument, and I've addressed it already. What I was referring to was his insinuation that the biggest problem trans people faced was the bathroom they could piss in.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Like, they want to try to decouple sex from gender, but in reality gender just seems like personality traits that have become associated with the sexes over the years. And since we are a sexually dimorphic species, it stands to reason that sexual selection has generally lead to these different attributes being selected for in men and women. So there could be a spectrum of how well you map onto what the typical manifestation of "masculinity" or "femininity" might look like, but ultimately the genders are still pretty closely linked to sex and human sexual selection.

I mean hell, even two people in this thread ardently arguing in favor of the difference between the two completely acknowledge that gender identity is more subjective and is a lot more difficult to quantify:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Did you read what I just said? Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Sex pertains to your physical anatomy, from the shape of your genitalia down to your the nature of your chromosomes. Gender refers to the masculine and feminine identities that pertain to each sex, the characteristics that define men and women beyond their bodies. One is physical, which your average trans person does not deny, the other is mental, and therefore by nature, intangible and ambiguous. Some people are more feminine than others, some people are more masculine than others, and these traits don't respect physical boundaries.

This is not hard to understand Surt, I'm sure you can grasp that what makes you man involves more than your little trunk. 🙁

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Is your experience of your gender a reality? Can you prove it? What makes your experience of your gender legitimate and the experience of another person of their gender illegitimate?

I mean would it not make more practical sense for us as a society to keep linguistic categories of pronouns in relation to biological sex, as well as keep legal documentation in relation to biological sex, and legislation regarding bathrooms in relation to biological sex (again, IMO bathrooms should either be segregated on the basis of biological sex since genitals and not psychology are relevant to taking a piss/shit, or they shouldn't be segregated to begin with), while still recognizing the differences in psychology and personality between varying human beings and accepting people dressing or behaving in ways more or less masculine/feminine than one of their sex traditionally does, and allowing them to get whatever cosmetic surgery or hormonal treatment they choose?

I simply don't see why "gender identity" needs to be instantiated into pronoun usage, bathroom usage, or legislative documentation for the difference in personality and psychology between individuals to be respected, particularly since it is way more practical to have language and legal documents based on something more tangible and objectively observable.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I know I will probably get shit for this, but they honestly sound somewhat delusional to me.

Like, they want to try to decouple sex from gender, but in reality gender just seems like personality traits that have become associated with the sexes over the years. And since we are a sexually dimorphic species, it stands to reason that sexual selection has generally lead to these different attributes being selected for in men and women. So there could be a spectrum of how well you map onto what the typical manifestation of "masculinity" or "femininity" might look like, but ultimately the genders are still pretty closely linked to sex and human sexual selection.

I mean why do most trans people who make the transition decide to inject hormones and have surgery if sex is irrelevant to gender? They are essentially striving for the closest possible replica of the opposite sex's biology that they can manage, by current medical science. But the science is incomplete, and thus the transition is as well. As it stands the best you can hope for is a sort of largely cosmetic (but also hormonal) approximation. Which seems to me like it would be inherently less fulfilling than the "real thing," so to speak.

So I mean trans people can do what they want, and I'm certainly not going to give them shit for it. But my actual opinion is that I worry that people are actually delusional about their identity and instead of being taught to confront that delusion they are being taught to embrace it. And it's not so clear to me that the results of doing so are really the best path. For instance, post-op trans people have a much higher suicide rate than their pre-op counterparts, IIRC.

That is just it, sex and gender are not coupled. It is only because your sex and gender are in alignment, that you see it that way.

Not all transitions involve medical interventions. Some transgender people do not desire to change their sex. Rather, they seek to live as a gender that is different than the one that was assigned to them on the basis of their birth sex.

Think of it this way: you identify as a man, and the people who see and interact with you on a day-to-day basis do not know whether you are male, but they accept that you are a man, because that is how you identify, and that is how you present yourself. It is the exact same thing for transgender people. The only difference is that the gender they identify with does not correspond to their birth sex.

Gender dysphoria is a difficult condition to live with. Not only do people with this condition face political oppression, religious persecution, and social stigmatization from society-at-large, and often their own friends and families, they have to live with an irresolvable incongruity between their sex and gender. Some think that medical interventions will close the gap enough between that incongruity that they will be happy, and are depressed to learn that it does not solve all of their problems. That is not a failure of the intervention, that is a failure of expectation.

Originally posted by Surtur
I know I get it, you have a laundry list of reasons why it's different. Good stuff.

In other words, you are unwilling or unable to answer the question. Deflect away!

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And this really begs the question; if gender identity is so subjective, intangible, ambiguous, hard to prove, and difficult to quantify, then why should we give so much linguistic and litigious weight to this form of identity?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Why indeed, but unfortunately, that's how society has operated for thousands of years. 🙁

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Up until recently we didn't make the distinction between gender identity and biological sex. We're making a grave mistake in trying to instantiate the less objectively measurable of the two into our language and legal documentation.

In that respect, pronouns, bathroom access, legal denotations etc. refer as much to a person's sex as to a person's gender. In should not be hard to work out why a trans person with identifies as female would be uncomfortable being referred to as "he", because it implies they have a masculine identity, when they don't, and a whole body of social behavior and character assumptions becomes shaped around that. The same goes with which bathroom you're allowed to use (which is largely a result of assumed male and female characteristics, not the shape of their privates) and arguably how you're legally identified.

If we lived in a society where these things referred to biological sex and nothing else, that would be great, but we don't.

What do you mean by REFERRING to Biological Sex?

As if people don't already THINK with their Private Parts enough now as it is...

Lol@ Democrats new Papa Johns slogan. Too funny.

Wrong Thread Surt?

I was just laughing at it, I had not seen the other thread. But yeah, Trump just needs good looking dudes around him, MSNBC says so.

Female MSNBC host says Trump wants ‘better-looking’ men in the White House

Quick someone name the good looking male who replaced Spicer.

I would rather look at the Hottest First Lady ever instead.

Cause lets face up to it... Mizz T Way Hotter then then ANY other Mizz Prez...Damn Straight.

Jackie Kennedy was bangable.

True, but that was Damn Long Time Ago.

Originally posted by Surtur
The 40% suicide rate says it all. I reject the notion that society causes it. These people are not Jews living in Nazi occupied Germany for christs sake. You will not walk down the street and see signs in the windows of stores that say "No transgendered people allowed".

The biggest issue we have seen in this country with trans people is which bathroom they get to piss in.

Also keep in mind that this has poisoned the minds of some people. There are transgender 4 years old now, because their batshit insane parents drank this kool aid. I do not mean to say the 4 yr. olds had operations or hormones, but there are transgender kids. Kids still pissing the bed being allowed to make life altering decisions.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
That is just it, sex and gender are not coupled. It is only because your sex and gender are in alignment, that you see it that way.

Not all transitions involve medical interventions. Some transgender people do not desire to change their sex. Rather, they seek to live as a gender that is different than the one that was assigned to them on the basis of their birth sex.

Think of it this way: you identify as a man, and the people who see and interact with you on a day-to-day basis do not know whether you are male, but they accept that you are a man, because that is how you identify, and that is how you present yourself. It is the exact same thing for transgender people. The only difference is that the gender they identify with does not correspond to their birth sex.

Gender dysphoria is a difficult condition to live with. Not only do people with this condition face political oppression, religious persecution, and social stigmatization from society-at-large, and often their own friends and families, they have to live with an irresolvable incongruity between their sex and gender. Some think that medical interventions will close the gap enough between that incongruity that they will be happy, and are depressed to learn that it does not solve all of their problems. That is not a failure of the intervention, that is a failure of expectation.

And so I don't necessarily "not understand" because I'm a non-trans male. I understand that some men want to become women. I don't completely understand their mind-state, but I can at least make sense of the fact that their sex doesn't satisfy them and they want to be something different.

What I don't understand, or to me what seems inherently incoherent, are the 70 something genders that are supposed to exist now. I don't understand the people who say they are neither male nor female, or that they are both simultaneously. I don't understand the people who say they identify with other animals or species.

And it seems like the left/social justice side of politics is basically inviting these kinds of incoherent claims by making them somewhat trendy and then shaming or shouting down anyone who openly questions them as simply being (best case) privileged and naive or (worst case) bigoted and malicious.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I don't necessarily reject that society causes transgender people to be depressed or suicidal. But I do think the fact that post-op have a higher suicide rate that pre-op, and that the vast majority of trans women never actually make that final transition, indicates that there is something about that sugery that has negative consequences which are not necessarily just due to "trans-phobia." I say this because I feel that surely pre-op trans people are just as susceptible to trans-phobia as post-op people.

I already addressed this. Many transgender people do not desire to change their bodies. Those that do, often encounter financial and legal obstacles that prevent them from completing medical transitions.

One needs a referral from two different psychologists in order to qualify for surgery, which means attending therapy for two years with two different therapists. Since sex reassignment is considered cosmetic, it is often not covered by insurance, and can cost up to $50,000. States often have their own requirements, including changing birth documents, and even reproductive sterilization.

In order to surmount all of these obstacles, some people begin to focus on getting the surgery as goal unto itself, instead of a means to an end. They become so focused on how to get to the destination, that they do not think about what will happen once they actually get there.

Many think they will get the surgery, and then they will be happy. But what they do not consider is that all of the troubles they had before surgery will still be there after surgery. They just get to face them in a body they feel more comfortable in. Many cosmetic and reconstructive surgery patients experience exactly the same thing. It is not unique to transgender people, nor is it a failure of the surgery.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
By "coupled" I don't mean synonymous. I simply mean that gender exists because human sexual dimorphism exists. So we have an archetype for "masculinity" that aligns roughly with what it would mean in the context of a hunter gatherer tribe for a man to be a good hunter, warrior, provider. And the archetype for "femininity" is largely based on what it means to be a good mother, nurturer, and wife. I don't see these as arbitrary social constructs, but as deeply rooted in human biology and evolution.

And so I don't necessarily "not understand" because I'm a non-trans male. I understand that some men want to become women. I don't completely understand their mind-state, but I can at least make sense of the fact that their sex doesn't satisfy them and they want to be something different.

What I don't understand, or to me what seems inherently incoherent, are the 70 something genders that are supposed to exist now. I don't understand the people who say they are neither male nor female, or that they are both simultaneously. I don't understand the people who say they identify with other animals or species.

And it seems like the left/social justice side of politics is basically inviting these kinds of incoherent claims by making them somewhat trendy and then shaming or shouting down anyone who openly questions them as simply being (best case) privileged and naive or (worst case) bigoted and malicious.

If concepts of gender had a basis in biology, they would be uniform across time and culture, and that is simply not the case. Many cultures have more than two genders, and roles assigned to men in one culture may be assigned to women in another.

It is evident that you do not understand, because you described a transwoman as a "man who wants to be a woman." A transwoman is not a man, a transwoman is male. And she does not want to be a woman, she identifies as a woman. You are framing it as a male wanting to be something he is not, when it is someone asserting that both of those identities are true.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I already addressed this. Many transgender people do not desire to change their bodies. Those that do, often encounter financial and legal obstacles that prevent them from completing medical transitions.

One needs a referral from two different psychologists in order to qualify for surgery, which means attending therapy for two years with two different therapists. Since sex reassignment is considered cosmetic, it is often not covered by insurance, and can cost up to $50,000. States often have their own requirements, including changing birth documents, and even reproductive sterilization.

In order to surmount all of these obstacles, some people begin to focus on getting the surgery as goal unto itself, instead of a means to an end. They become so focused on how to get to the destination, that they do not think about what will happen once they actually get there.

Many think they will get the surgery, and then they will be happy. But what they do not consider is that all of the troubles they had before surgery will still be there after surgery. They just get to face them in a body they feel more comfortable in. Many cosmetic and reconstructive surgery patients experience exactly the same thing. It is not unique to transgender people, nor is it a failure of the surgery.

Because of course if they really believe they are a female trapped in a male's body, they will want to have a female body and they will see this as the solution to their problem. I think that is a sort of natural assumption for one to make if they are in that sort of situation.

Your statement that many don't want to alter their bodies just sounds to me like some of the more inane and trendy modern manifestations of people on tumblr who want to vaguely identify as something other than "cis" but do not want to go so far as making hormonal or surgical modifications to their bodies because they probably intuitively recognize the potential hazards of doing so. I think most of these people are playing word games and are just men or women who feel some level of disillusion with the gender roles they are expected to take on.

But it would seem to me the majority of trans people are usually born male and generally trying to present themselves as women. And beyond that, most of them do make modifications to their body. They just stop short of cutting their dicks off, because that is an intrinsically very radical thing to do.

But the use of hormones and cosmetic surgery to better approximate the body of a human female once again stands out to me as a subconscious recognition that in fact biology does matter. That being a woman only makes sense in the context of human biology, and that these people are doing their best to cosmetically and hormonally approximate that condition.

If concepts of gender had a basis in biology, they would be uniform across time and culture, and that is simply not the case. Many cultures have more than two genders, and roles assigned to men in one culture may be assigned to women in another.

On top of that, in any tribe there is always going to be a dominance heirarchy, and you would expect as a result of that that different men and women will fall into place at different locations across the spectrum. So not all males are going to be genetically fit to be warlords, but they will find their place in the tribe according to whatever characteristics they do offer.

It is evident that you do not understand, because you described a transwoman as a "man who wants to be a woman." A transwoman is not a man, a transwoman is male. And she does not want to be a woman, she identifies as a woman. You are framing it as a male wanting to be something he is not, when it is someone asserting that both of those identities are true.

Let me ask you this... what is it about gender that makes it the sort of thing that you get to choose where as you dismiss the idea that people could do the same with race? Because the only arguments I've ever seen are that well some people are born with brains that more closely resemble a female brain or something along those lines. But doesn't that just back up the idea that gender is manifestation of sexual dimorphism? That it actually is closely linked to biology? And if so, wouldn't that undermine the idea that so and so can just declare themselves "masculine of center gender queer" or whatever tedious category they come up with that has absolutely no basis in their own biology?

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I don't really disagree with any of what you just said. But that only adds to my gut feeling that ultimately the trans thing is a sort of delusion that we are encouraging people to engage in.

Because of course if they really believe they are a female trapped in a male's body, they will want to have a female body and they will see this as the solution to their problem. I think that is a sort of natural assumption for one to make if they are in that sort of situation.

Your statement that many don't want to alter their bodies just sounds to me like some of the more inane and trendy modern manifestations of people on tumblr who want to vaguely identify as something other than "cis" but do not want to go so far as making hormonal or surgical modifications to their bodies because they probably intuitively recognize the potential hazards of doing so. I think most of these people are playing word games and are just men or women who feel some level of disillusion with the gender roles they are expected to take on.

But it would seem to me the majority of trans people are usually born male and generally trying to present themselves as women. And beyond that, most of them do make modifications to their body. They just stop short of cutting their dicks off, because that is an intrinsically very radical thing to do.

But the use of hormones and cosmetic surgery to better approximate the body of a human female once again stands out to me as a subconscious recognition that in fact biology does matter. That being a woman only makes sense in the context of human biology, and that these people are doing their best to cosmetically and hormonally approximate that condition.

For someone who is so insistent that he understands the issue, every time you post, you demonstrate that you do not.

A transwoman is not "a woman trapped in a man's body." She is a woman with a male body.

Transgender people do not seek medical interventions, because they "believe gender has a basis in biology." They do so to ease gender dysphoria, or to be better accepted as the gender with which they identify.

Imagine if you were short, or slight of frame, or had delicate features, and people constantly perceived you as a woman. Since you identify as a man, it is important to you that people see you as a man. So you might wear lifts in your shoes, or lift weights, or grow a beard, or get plastic surgery.

It is the exact same thing for transgender people, particularly because other people interact with their gender far more than with their genitals.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I see no reason why they would be uniform. Evolution is incredibly complex. What might make the ideal father in tribe A is not necessarily going to be the same in tribe B, especially if tribe A and B exist in radically different environments.

On top of that, in any tribe there is always going to be a dominance heirarchy, and you would expect as a result of that that different men and women will fall into place at different locations across the spectrum. So not all males are going to be genetically fit to be warlords, but they will find their place in the tribe according to whatever characteristics they do offer.

If gender had a basis in biology, how would it not be uniform? Aside from intersex persons who have a congenital birth defect, there are no human beings who are not sexually dimorphic, so where would variations in gender come from? There is not enough genetic variation among human beings for there to be actual, separate races, yet somehow you believe that there is enough to account for variations in gender? And that it is somehow just a coincidence that concepts of gender change over time and across cultures?

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
You're quibbling over my use of language to say that I don't understand. Let me say this... I might not be completely on top of how the trans/feminist community wants us to speak. But I feel that they are using these word games to preach their ideology, so I see little reason to grant them the authority to dictate how I speak since I don't particularly care for their ideology.

There is an entire branch of Philosophy dedicated to Semantics, and how language shapes thought. Conversely, the language you use, inadvertently reveals your thoughts to others. So when you use imprecise language, not only are you not effectively communicating your thoughts to other people, but you are also revealing to them what you do and do not know.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Let me ask you this... what is it about gender that makes it the sort of thing that you get to choose where as you dismiss the idea that people could do the same with race? Because the only arguments I've ever seen are that well some people are born with brains that more closely resemble a female brain or something along those lines. But doesn't that just back up the idea that gender is manifestation of sexual dimorphism? That it actually is closely linked to biology? And if so, wouldn't that undermine the idea that so and so can just declare themselves "masculine of center gender queer" or whatever tedious category they come up with that has absolutely no basis in their own biology?

What makes you think gender is chosen?

This is precisely what I mentioned above. You insist you understand the issue, then you post, and remove any doubt that you do.

That is the logical equivalent of saying a homosexual prefers members of the same sex, when he is in fact exclusively attracted to members of the same sex.

You are operating from the presumption that transgender people are choosing another gender, rather than experiencing the gender they have.

You talk to much.