Originally posted by NewGuy01
A lot more powerful than most give him credit for. His reasoning aside, I actually agree with Rocky's conclusion; at his best, I think Kenobi could certainly handle someone like Darth Malgus.In general I agree that Kenobi isn't as strong as Malgus, but didn't he bend one of Grievous' steel arms like a cheap spoon in the RotS novel? I think that may be better than throwing someone.
You would back Kenobi over prime Malgus? (Prime being False Emperor Malgus)
I don't see how Malgus can't ragdoll, though. I've seen nothing that puts Kenobi on par with Deceived Malgus in power much less with Illum Malgus, who's far more powerful than his previous iteration.
There's also scaling from the Dromund Kaas DS nexus from the Vitiate/HoT showdown that Malgus benefits.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Saying Kenobi is physically stronger than Malgus is just blatant fanboying, tbh. Regardless of what Malgus has demonstrated, it should be obvious by just looking at them who can bench more, lmfao. This is where logic comes in play. However, I recall Malgus throwing Jedi around with one arm in those trailers. Kenobi's never replicated that in a relevant showing.
That Kenobi has sufficient arm strength that he can crush the arm of someone who can dent Starfighters actually matters here as the strength of your arm dictates how hard you can strike
Originally posted by NewGuy01
A lot more powerful than most give him credit for. His reasoning aside, I actually agree with Rocky's conclusion; at his best, I think Kenobi could certainly handle someone like Darth Malgus.In general I agree that Kenobi isn't as strong as Malgus, but didn't he bend one of Grievous' duranium arms like it was a cheap spoon in the RotS novel? I think that may be better than throwing someone.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That Kenobi has sufficient arm strength that he can crush the arm of someone who can dent Starfighters actually matters here as the strength of your arm dictates how hard you can strike
Those two things don't seem to have anything to do with each other.
The impact Grievous can generate when throwing a punch is going to be a lot greater than the amount of pressure Grievous can put on Kenobi when Kenobi is holding his wrist (which is, at best, just body weight, I imagine).
It's not like Grievous went to punch Kenobi and Kenobi blocked it with his hands.
Malgus is going to be physically superior because not only is he blatantly stronger w/o augmentation, but he's also blatantly more powerful so he's going to have stronger augmentation.
Great Ant, now explain why we shouldn't take what Kenobi can do at his best?
Refer back to that quote from Witwer that described it well: Kenobi is a B-grade Jedi who can perform A-tier in certain circumstances.
When we debate, I imagine we debate their standard-self, not any extreme circumstances, unless specified.
Originally posted by NewGuy01In general I agree that Kenobi isn't as strong as Malgus, but didn't he bend one of Grievous' duranium arms like it was a cheap spoon in the RotS novel? I think that may be better than throwing someone. [/B]
But Obi-Wan's arm had the Force to give it strength, and the general's arm only had the innate crystalline intermolecular structure of duranium alloy.
Malgus hasn't done jack that puts him as a tier 8.
Except, he does? lmao.
It's a bit complicated and requires scaling and hype. Don't really feel like going into all that right now, lal.
Kenobi has crushed the fist of someone who can dent ships like a cheapspoon.
- Malgus was completely crushing Leneer with his physical blows alone [ keep in mind - Leneer is powerful enough to propel herself 50 meters in the air with Force jump, and physically toss Malgus, who should weigh, lets say, 300 pounds +, 20 meter].
- Physically taking it to both Zallow, and Adraas, with the latter, he broke his ribs with a kicked and snapped his neck via strangulation.
- He was physically walking [or at least take a few steps] through Satele's Hadouken, after he was slammed through the cliff-side hard enough to leave his body imprint.
Add that to the fact that, Darth Malgus' strength, actually plays a key role in all of his shown fights - wheather it's sending Jedi flying, beating down their guards, or kicking them like a MMA artist. On he flipside, however, strength almost never play any sort of role in Kenobi duels. So, it's clear strength is a major component of Malgus' game, while, the opposite for Ben's. Plus, while what Kenobi did to GG is indeed impressive, I generally rank demolishing powerful Force users over destroying inorganic shit. Of course, that is just my opinion.
Feel free to disagree.
has deflected/avoided omnidirectional blasterfire from ten thousand droids
Malgus was going blow for blow with Lener, someone who was moving/reacting in microseconds, and seeing hyperspace ships in slowmotion, suffice to say, speed won't be a problem for Malgus at all.
and has tanked three kicks from someone who can shatter durasteel in quick succession despite having been ko'd twice and tortured severely beforehand.
Malgus has,
- tanked Satele Kamehameha wave
- tanked an freaking grenade exploding point blank on his face
- blew off tons of rubble off his person after tanking Satele's blast through a freaking cliff-side.
Malgus is more durable, without question. 👆
I'm gonna relook at the novel before I address your fisrts point.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66Refer back to that quote from Witwer that described it well: Kenobi is a B-grade Jedi who can perform A-tier in certain circumstances.
When we debate, I imagine we debate their standard-self, not any extreme circumstances, unless specified. [/B]
It's nice to see you consider voice actor opinons worth crap but statements of authority and canonical ones worthless.
Anyhow, no, Witwer didn't say crap about special circumstances. What he said was that
A. Kenobi at his best is great
B. Kenobi not at his best isn't so great.
You might note that B referred to that fight where he had been ko'd twice beforehand and was mentally unbalanced(before that he was winning)
A off course refers to when Kenobi made use of an ability we have seen him use multiple times at will(in other word snot circumstantial) to boost his own performance.
Kenobi can use EM(empty meditation) against malgus if he needs to though I find even that dubious given how even without em Kenobi was still edging Maul out in their 1 v 1 before they went to the cave(he made maul's legs whine and then landed a kick which maul took 6 seconds to recover from).
In other words, Kenobi, not fighting at his best was still better thana superior version of one of th emost skilled sith in history who happens to be in the tier above tier 7's who represent the peak of lightsaber combat in the mythos.
Lets say malgus's hype/scaling puts him at the peak of lightsaber combat and marks him as one of the best in history, that still only puts him at a tier 7
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I'm gonna relook at the novel before I address your fisrts point.It's nice to see you consider voice actor opinons worth crap but statements of authority and canonical ones worthless.
Anyhow, no, Witwer didn't say crap about special circumstances. What he said was that
A. Kenobi at his best is great
B. Kenobi not at his best isn't so great.You might note that B referred to that fight where he had been ko'd twice beforehand and was mentally unbalanced(before that he was winning)
A off course refers to when Kenobi made use of an ability we have seen him use multiple times at will(in other word snot circumstantial) to boost his own performance.
Kenobi can use EM(empty meditation) against malgus if he needs to though I find even that dubious given how even without em Kenobi was still edging Maul out in their 1 v 1 before they went to the cave(he made maul's legs whine and then landed a kick which maul took 6 seconds to recover from).
In other words, Kenobi, not fighting at his best was still better thana superior version of one of th emost skilled sith in history who happens to be in the tier above tier 7's who represent the peak of lightsaber combat in the mythos.
Lets say malgus's hype/scaling puts him at the peak of lightsaber combat and marks him as one of the best in history, that still only puts him at a tier 7
Question sort of relating to the topic, but more so just in a vacuum: In your opinion, what constitutes an "8" in this lightsaber dueling tiering system that you keep referencing? What would a TOR (or KOTOR, or Ancient Sith, or DBT era) character have to do for you to consider them an 8? Because it basically sounds like you believe that achieving tier 8 status is something that can literally only be done by PT combatants.
Originally posted by nfactor1995
Question sort of relating to the topic, but more so just in a vacuum: In your opinion, what constitutes an "8" in this lightsaber dueling tiering system that you keep referencing? What would a TOR (or KOTOR, or Ancient Sith, or DBT era) character have to do for you to consider them an 8? Because it basically sounds like you believe that achieving tier 8 status is something that can literally only be done by PT combatants.
As a reference point: TPM Maul is significantly above qui-gon who is one of the best in history per multiple statements and hence has earned the status of a tier 8.
And yes they're more pt era characters who fit here which make sense when you consider that
A. the pt era is the jedi order in it's prime
B. Tier 8 is described as "cheat" which indicates it would be beyond your typical top tier duelists
C. The top 5 of the pt era, yoda, sidious, Anakin, Dooku, and mace all of accolades/hype that put them quite literally as the best 5 duelists in the mythos as of their era.
D. The PT era would build on all the knowledge of the older eras and the training methods ect.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
what does the hot have on par with Kenobi's wildspace showing?(keep in mind that was tcw Kenobi)
the Dromund Kaas feat, no doubt. Kyle Katarn turned to the dark side by being on Dromund Kaas, and Luke and Jaina had much trouble fighting on the planet, yet Hero of Tython fights through Imperial Honor Guards and Sith in the Dark Temple, gives Vitiate extra time to recover to save his apprentice from more sith and guards, then defeats Vitiate in the heart of his power.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
the Dromund Kaas feat, no doubt. Kyle Katarn turned to the dark side by being on Dromund Kaas, and Luke and Jaina had much trouble fighting on the planet, yet Hero of Tython fights through Imperial Honor Guards and Sith in the Dark Temple, gives Vitiate extra time to recover to save his apprentice from more sith and guards, then defeats Vitiate in the heart of his power.
As for the second part, given that HOT was able to only pull a single collum of the wall with strain while a near dead vitiate was collapsing the entire ceiling, I'm not sure how much of that can be attributed to power.