Gogeta replace Goku in the tournament

People are afraid of Zen-Oh because he can instantly and effortlessly erase the universe, or any number of universes in the Multiverse. Hell, we see in the Manga that he destroys hundreds of Merged Zamasu's, the entire multiverse, and arguably destroying all time in space within said Multiverse (yes, I know that Goku came back in the future in the time machine, but it's undeniable that when Zen-Oh destroyed the Multiverse, the time ring was erased, implying that timeline no longer existed).

I would agree that the feats from BoG aren't necessarily upheld to this point, but it's still undeniable that Beerus is at least universal, imo. Too many feats/statements supporting it.

Still no sign of Carver... Maybe in a week, when I am back... PM me should he every show up and link it but at least I know now for sure that he simply lied about the interview.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
People are afraid of Zen-Oh because he can instantly and effortlessly erase the universe, or any number of universes in the Multiverse. Hell, we see in the Manga that he destroys hundreds of Merged Zamasu's, the entire multiverse, and arguably destroying all time in space within said Multiverse (yes, I know that Goku came back in the future in the time machine, but it's undeniable that when Zen-Oh destroyed the Multiverse, the time ring was erased, implying that timeline no longer existed).

I would agree that the feats from BoG aren't necessarily upheld to this point, but it's still undeniable that Beerus is at least universal, imo. Too many feats/statements supporting it.

Thing is, if the interpretation of someone like Carver was correct, then someone like Hit can just hop from universe to universe using a Cube, and just smash his hands together a couple times to do the same thing. Sure, you could argue that the reason people are afraid of Zen-Oh is because he can erase any individual too, but you can't ignore that the fact that Zen-Oh can casually erase universes is something that's constantly cited as a measure of his infinite superiority.

As for your comment on Beerus, I didn't imply otherwise. On the contrary, it's a fact that Gods of Destruction can destroy the universe--so can Omega Shenron, for that matter. The point is that Goku can't, despite being roughly in the same power bracket as them, which leads me to believe that what happened in BoG was related to the Energy of Destruction that only the Hakaishin possess. I also personally suspect that Whis might not be able to destroy the universe either, despite being far and away Beerus's superior, because at the end of the day he's not the destroyer.

I agree that Zen-Oh being able to erase a universe in and of itself scares the Gods of Destruction shitless, but you could argue that's because the nature of the technique. Zen-Ohs technique literally erases the existence of whatever it's targeting, completely and utterly, to the extent that even time and space gets ****ed up/erased. This is supported by both the manga and the fact that the other 6 universes Zen-Oh erased show no signs of existing in any capacity (I.e. They're not just devoid of celestial objects, they're utterly erased/gone from existence). Suffice it to say, the ability to erase an entire universe instantly and effortlessly is indeed infinitely superior to what the gods of Destruction can accomplish.

I would be inclined to disagree regarding Whis not being able to destroy a universe. If Champa and Beerus fighting would cause the annihilation of universes 6 and 7, and then immediately after Whis and Vados proceed to oneshot them, I see no reason why Whis would be incapable of destroying a universe.

That said, I agree that Hit and Goku can't just smack their hands together and destroy a universe. However, I don't think Beerus being able to destroy a universe is solely due to his destroyer energy, because there's still the fact that he nullified a super-sense energy ball (which possessed both Goku and Beerus' energies, so it wouldn't just be destroyer energy) capable of annihilating the universe without much noticeable strain.

i do agree that the likes of Goku, Hit, Vegeta, Frieza, etc aren't necessarily capable of destroying the universe. But to me, that just means that atm none of those characters are in Beerus' weight class yet, which is supported by the show and the manga (SSB Vegetto, who is infinitely above Merged Zamasu, who is on par with mastered SSB Goku, isnt even definitively above Beerus).

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I would be inclined to disagree regarding Whis not being able to destroy a universe. If Champa and Beerus fighting would cause the annihilation of universes 6 and 7, and then immediately after Whis and Vados proceed to oneshot them, I see no reason why Whis would be incapable of destroying a universe.

Did you even read my post?

However, I don't think Beerus being able to destroy a universe is solely due to his destroyer energy, because there's still the fact that he nullified a super-dense energy ball (which possessed both Goku and Beerus' energies, so it wouldn't just be destroyer energy) capable of annihilating the universe without much noticeable strain.

If it contained the Energy of Destruction, why does the ball not being *purely* comprised of it matter?

I do agree that the likes of Goku, Hit, Vegeta, Frieza, etc aren't necessarily capable of destroying the universe. But to me, that just means that atm none of those characters are in Beerus' weight class yet.

If it was purely a matter of power, then the restrained Beerus that n00b SSG Goku was matching would still be capable of destroying the universe, ergo so could the much more powerful current Goku.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Be that as it may, the mechanics of Goku's [single] universal feat are hardly any less suspect. When asked recently on twitter if the current Goku could destroy the universe, one of the writers for Super answered "Maybe if he became a God of Destruction. But even if he could, he wouldn't do it."

This is consistent with the series only alluding to the destruction of the universe where the Gods of Destruction or Zen-Oh are involved, which leads me to suspect that the expanding energy waves from Battle of the Gods were related to the nature of the Energy of Destruction Beerus possesses as a GoD rather than the force of their punches. If that really is the case, then it's not really that unlike the situation with Omega Shenron's negative energy.

But, if you want to go on thinking that training for a couple months made Frieza strong enough to punch the universe away, that's your prerogative. Makes you wonder why people are so afraid of Zen-Oh if it's that easy, though.

😂

Originally posted by carver9
😂

Hey, don't laugh. Xsupreme's a good poster, NewGuys just outplaying him here, no need to rub it in by laughing about it. 🙁 (Ignore Carver, I still believe in you, Xsupreme.. 😉 )

Originally posted by Inedian
But SSJ4 Gogeta was far more powerful than Omega Shenron.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Did you even read my post?

If it contained the Energy of Destruction, why does the ball not being *purely* comprised of it matter?

If it was purely a matter of power, then the restrained Beerus that n00b SSG Goku was matching would still be capable of destroying the universe, ergo so could the much more powerful current Goku.

1. Yeah, and it makes no sense whatsoever. If you're saying that Beerus can destroy a universe but Whis can't due to not wielding destroyer energy, then Beerus would hold a degree of power over Whis. But he very clearly doesn't, and in fact can't, as the role of the angel is to monitor the God of Destruction, and put him down if need be.

2. My point is that Beerus being able to destroy a universe isn't contingent on the destroyer energy, as evidenced by him casually nullifying the ball's energies, half of which wasn't destroyer energy, (meaning that Goku's non-destroyer energies were also universe-busting, as was stated in the arc numerous times). Then later in the fight, when SSJ Goku is charging his kamehameha, Beerus states, "It looks like I won't be able to nullify this that easily."

3. What I'm saying is that while yes, shit from the BoG arc has been retconned, Beerus being universal (without some chain reaction destroyer energy bs) still stands, imo. Current Goku not being able to destroy a universe just means he's not in Beerus' weight class. Beerus may well be on par with SSB Vegetto, ffs.

Spoiler:
that's for watching animu with ant and not telling me about it/asking me to join in. 🙂

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Yeah, and it makes no sense whatsoever. If you're saying that Beerus can destroy a universe but Whis can't due to not wielding destroyer energy, then Beerus would hold a degree of power over Whis. But he very clearly doesn't, and in fact can't, as the role of the angel is to monitor the God of Destruction, and put him down if need be.

2. My point is that Beerus being able to destroy a universe isn't contingent on the destroyer energy, as evidenced by him casually nullifying the ball's energies, half of which wasn't destroyer energy, (meaning that Goku's non-destroyer energies were also universe-busting, as was stated in the arc numerous times). Then later in the fight, when SSJ Goku is charging his kamehameha, Beerus states, "It looks like I won't be able to nullify this that easily."

3. What I'm saying is that while yes, shit from the BoG arc has been retconned, Beerus being universal (without some chain reaction destroyer energy bs) still stands, imo. Current Goku not being able to destroy a universe just means he's not in Beerus' weight class. Beerus may well be on par with SSB Vegetto, ffs.

👆

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Yeah, and it makes no sense whatsoever. If you're saying that Beerus can destroy a universe but Whis can't due to not wielding destroyer energy, then Beerus would hold a degree of power over Whis. But he very clearly doesn't, and in fact can't, as the role of the angel is to monitor the God of Destruction, and put him down if need be.

Not following your logic at all. Whis is Beerus's teacher, and is a much better fighter than him, yes--but he's not the God of Destruction. He's the angel, the attendant, whose purpose and abilities (so far as we've seen) revolve around keeping him in check. It's perfectly reasonable to assume Beerus can do things that Whis can't, otherwise what's even the point of Beerus' existence? If the angels are the ones who keep the gods in line with their duty, but could fill their role themselves, then what's even the point of the system? Obviously the status of destroyer, and the unique ability that comes with it, is special and important. Thing is, the power to destroy a universe wouldn't give Beerus any power over Whis at all, because he can use his staff to undo anything Beerus does.

If you want to back away from the universe-feat, which is in the territory of theories, let's take another example. In that episode with Arale, Beerus uses the Energy of Destruction to erase a non-corporeal ghost--does simply being more powerful mean Whis can do that? No.

2. My point is that Beerus being able to destroy a universe isn't contingent on the destroyer energy, as evidenced by him casually nullifying the ball's energies, half of which wasn't destroyer energy, (meaning that Goku's non-destroyer energies were also universe-busting, as was stated in the arc numerous times).

But if it was universe-threatening in the first place because of the nature of said energy, then that entirely changes the discussion. And once again, going by your argument, Goku would have to have been universe+ level back in the BoG arc. If you want to close your eyes and just brush it off as retconned, that's fine, but in the meantime I'm going to be trying to rationalize it.

3. What I'm saying is that while yes, shit from the BoG arc has been retconned, Beerus being universal (without some chain reaction destroyer energy bs) still stands, imo.

Even disregarding my thoughts regarding the Energy of Destruction, it's still chain reaction BS no matter how you twist it. The universe was being threatened by mysterious energy waves that became stronger as they travelled, not some big giant flash like what Zen-Oh did. 👇

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. Yeah, and it makes no sense whatsoever. If you're saying that Beerus can destroy a universe but Whis can't due to not wielding destroyer energy, then Beerus would hold a degree of power over Whis. But he very clearly doesn't, and in fact can't, as the role of the angel is to monitor the God of Destruction, and put him down if need be.

2. My point is that Beerus being able to destroy a universe isn't contingent on the destroyer energy, as evidenced by him casually nullifying the ball's energies, half of which wasn't destroyer energy, (meaning that Goku's non-destroyer energies were also universe-busting, as was stated in the arc numerous times). Then later in the fight, when SSJ Goku is charging his kamehameha, Beerus states, "It looks like I won't be able to nullify this that easily."

3. What I'm saying is that while yes, shit from the BoG arc has been retconned, Beerus being universal (without some chain reaction destroyer energy bs) still stands, imo. Current Goku not being able to destroy a universe just means he's not in Beerus' weight class. Beerus may well be on par with SSB Vegetto, ffs.

Spoiler:
that's for watching animu with ant and not telling me about it/asking me to join in. 🙂

Perfect post. Goku is still universal.

Originally posted by carver9
Perfect post. Goku is still universal.

😂 Not what he said at all.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not following your logic at all. Whis is Beerus's teacher, and is a much better fighter than him, yes--but he's not the God of Destruction. He's the angel, the attendant, whose purpose and abilities (so far as we've seen) revolve around keeping him in check. It's perfectly reasonable to assume Beerus can do things that Whis can't, otherwise what's even the point of Beerus' existence? If the angels are the ones who keep the gods in line with their duty, but could fill their role themselves, then what's even the point of the system? Obviously the status of destroyer, and the unique ability that comes with it, is special and important. Thing is, the power to destroy a universe wouldn't give Beerus any power over Whis at all, because he can use his staff to undo anything Beerus does.

If you want to back away from the universe-feat, which is in the territory of theories, let's take another example. In that episode with Arale, Beerus uses the Energy of Destruction to erase a non-corporeal ghost--does simply being more powerful mean Whis can do that? No.

My point is this: there's no getting around that Whis is far more powerful than Beerus. You're essentially speculating that a Destroyer has a unique ability that lets him destroy more shit than an angel can. I'm going to argue that this has no basis in evidence, as apart from the destroyer energy's unique ability to erase things from existence, there is nothing to make me believe it allows a destroyer to destroy more than an angel can, while retaining the idea that the angel is far more powerful than the God of Destruction. I understand that there are things the Gods of Destruction can do that angels can't via the Destroyer energy, but that could be more due to their power being able to erase beings from existence, rather than their ability to destroy more shit than an angel can. As for why keep the system...I don't know. Why are there varying numbers of kaioshin in each universe? Why even have so many layers of Kai's? Where the hell do the angels even come from? FFS, it's probable that the angels themselves are evil. We have no knowledge as to why the God hierarchy is as it is, especially considering Zen-Oh is an retard.

Basically, as far as I'm concerned, if a God of Destruction is capable of destroying more shit than an angel can, this means that the God of Destruction is more powerful than that angel. It's true with literally any other comparison.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
But if it was universe-threatening in the first place because of the nature of said energy, then that entirely changes the discussion. And once again, going by your argument, Goku would have to have been universe+ level back in the BoG arc. If you want to close your eyes and just brush it off as retconned, that's fine, but in the meantime I'm going to be trying to rationalize it.

Yes...but we know that's not the case because Goku's energies were shown and stated to be universal countless times back in BoG. So what you'd have to do to argue that the destroyer energy is unique in it's destructive capacity...is close your eyes and brush off the feats and statements regarding Goku's feats as retconned.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Even disregarding my thoughts regarding the Energy of Destruction, it's still chain reaction BS no matter how you twist it. The universe was being threatened by mysterious energy waves that became stronger as they travelled, not some big giant flash like what Zen-Oh did. 👇

Actually, no. The super-dense energy ball was literally going to blow up and incinerate the entire universe. Beerus and Goku were pushing this universe-annihilating ball back and forth, and then Beerus casually nullifies it. So Beerus would still be universal without chain reaction BS.

Originally posted by carver9
Perfect post. Goku is still universal.

Carver, do you remember the interview you wanted to post? Because right now it seems you lied about it. Did you?

SSJ4 Gogeta stomps SSJ Blue Goku.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Thing is, if the interpretation of someone like Carver was correct, then someone like Hit can just hop from universe to universe using a Cube, and just smash his hands together a couple times to do the same thing. Sure, you could argue that the reason people are afraid of Zen-Oh is because he can erase any individual too, but you can't ignore that the fact that Zen-Oh can casually erase universes is something that's constantly cited as a measure of his infinite superiority.

As for your comment on Beerus, I didn't imply otherwise. On the contrary, it's a fact that Gods of Destruction can destroy the universe--so can Omega Shenron, for that matter. The point is that Goku can't, despite being roughly in the same power bracket as them, which leads me to believe that what happened in BoG was related to the Energy of Destruction that only the Hakaishin possess. I also personally suspect that Whis might not be able to destroy the universe either, despite being far and away Beerus's superior, because at the end of the day he's not the destroyer.

Erasing a Multiverse on a fundamental level, not even leaving time and space(what Zeno can do)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>emptying the universe of celestial bodies(what Hit can do).

Beers casually nullifies the ball and later states that a KHH would be harder to nullify.

From dragon tem subs, IIRC.

Lol, Goku even basically told Kale and Cauli in Ep 101 to go and become way stronger so that he can fight them properly.

Goku is having the time of his life in the ToP so far, like a kid in a candy store, not even a minimum scratch on him... yet here people even believe he is deadly serious and going all out.

Bullshitting around as always in here, I see. 😂

Originally posted by Nevan
No.

Erasing a Multiverse on a fundamental level, not even leaving time and space(what Zeno can do)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>emptying the universe of celestial bodies(what Hit can do).

👆

Anyone should know this.