Count Dooku/Asajj Ventress vs. ROTJ Luke Skywalker/Ben Kenobi (Sabers only)

DD Ventress
Canon feats only

Is there anything in canon which actually places vader above Kenobi explicitly?

I mean, I coukd prolly make an arguement for it based on a movie-interpretation of the fight, but it would be debatable to say the least

Because if Kenobi truly=Vader, given Vader's feats force wise, you could def argue Ben could take dooku

If it was all-out I'd say that Ben could take Dooku but in sabers the old jedi doesn't have the same skill that his younger self had.

I believe that Dooku would find a weakness in Ben's out-of-practice soresu before Luke could finish off Ventress.

Canon only?
Team 1. Dooku is still >Ben by a slight margin, and he is most definitely above Luke. Ventress could perhaps take down Canon Luke, but she would die to Ben.
Team 1 because Dooku is MVP.

Give Ben the margin over Dooku personally.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Give Ben the margin over Dooku personally.

But why? I don't think ANH Vader>Dooku.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
But why? I don't think ANH Vader>Dooku.

I think he is in Canon. The new canon has massively bugged Vader up. He's easily on par with ROTS Anakin.

Ben solos.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I think he is in Canon. The new canon has massively bugged Vader up. He's easily on par with ROTS Anakin.

He might be. Not entirely sure though, since in Canon Dooku contended with Yoda without being rage amped.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
He might be. Not entirely sure though, since in Canon Dooku contended with Yoda without being rage amped.

Yes but then look how casually Palpatine (Yoda's equal) can Force Choke Dooku from across the Galaxy.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yes but then look how casually Palpatine (Yoda's equal) can Force Choke Dooku from across the Galaxy.

I know. But we're talking sabers here. In Legends, Dooku was rage amped+Yoda was holding back on Geonosis, but not in Canon. That puts Dooku on Vader's level or above. Even if he is Vader level, he should beat Ben because Vader was visibly driving Ben back and had somewhat of an upper hand.

^ Pretty sure the scripts by Lucas are still considered Canon, and Dooku was completely outmatched in Sabers going by them. Plus I'm sure Vader is capable of putting up a fight guy against Yoda so the point is moot.

Also Kenobi being driven back by Vader doesn't mean too much. Just look at their ROTS duel.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Pretty sure the scripts by Lucas are still considered Canon, and Dooku was completely outmatched in Sabers going by them. Plus I'm sure Vader is capable of putting up a fight guy against Yoda so the point is moot.

Also Kenobi being driven back by Vader doesn't mean too much. Just look at their ROTS duel.

The scripts aren't canon because they outright contradict the movie. In the AOTC script, Yoda stabs for Dooku's head but misses. This never happened in the movie.

And the ROTS duel is still riddled with circumstances in Canon. Anakin is canonically above Obi-Wan even in Canon. Anakin being the superior fighter, of course he's driving Kenobi back. He just made a dumb mistake at the end.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
I know. But we're talking sabers here. In Legends, Dooku was rage amped

Is Ventress the cheerleader? She has no place in this matchup - much less in canon.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
What?

The AOTC novel notes how, after letting loose a growl of rage, Dooku's tempo drastically increased.

His rage increased his physicals. As per The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Force Rage does exactly that. It amps your physical abilities.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
The AOTC novel notes how, after letting loose a growl of rage, Dooku's tempo drastically increased.

His rage increased his physicals. As per The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Force Rage does exactly that. It amps your physical abilities.

Team two, Ventress is an obvious weak link.

Originally posted by thesithmaster
The scripts aren't canon because they outright contradict the movie. In the AOTC script, Yoda stabs for Dooku's head but misses. This never happened in the movie.

Think it will take more than just that to render the entire script version of the fight as non canon. Pretty sure the official website also states the fight to be pretty one sided. As does the novel (the novelisations are somewhere on the border of Legends and Canon).

Originally posted by thesithmaster

And the ROTS duel is still riddled with circumstances in Canon. Anakin is canonically above Obi-Wan even in Canon. Anakin being the superior fighter, of course he's driving Kenobi back. He just made a dumb mistake at the end.

They fought equally. Anakin's superior strength forcing Obi-Wan backwards doesn't really change that, given Kenobi's Defensive style. Heck he backs off from Ventress in TCW movie, and he was solidly beating her.

The dumb mistake came after several minutes of fighting pretty evenly. And don't forget the stalemated force push. Anakin clearly wasn't on form in that fight likely because he was emotionally hindered.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Sidious growled in rage vs yoda, obvs Yoda>Sids

Sidious' tempo didn't drastically increase.