Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
👆See you 'round, Kbro. Nice tty.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
So their fight on Florrum wasn't one of ''many opportunities'' for Maul to kill Obi-Wan? No, he just didn't kill him when he had him in a Force choke or when he ragdolled him at the end because lulz.
I already conceded that Maul wasn't trying to kill him on Florrum. My concession only works if we're dismissing parts of sc that blatantly the episode, such as say, the narrow space or the brothers getting in each other's way. Otherwise, Maul explicitly trying to kill Kenobi debunks your assertion:
quote:
"Maul sprang after Obi-Wan, aiming a killing blow at him from behind in hopes of catching his Jedi enemy in a moment of distraction. Obi-Wan sensed it coming and whirled with blinding speed, parrying Maul's attack"
Nice chewin on ya, chocolate
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
?That the space was narrow or that the brothers are getting in each other's way isn't contradicted in the episode. If you disagree, prove it.
1. Both brothers could fit in the hallway when standing next to each otherdespite there being space between the two (they fought on separate sides of Kenobi):
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m11s
2. They didn't get in each other's way because they took opposite sides of Kenobi:
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=3m36s
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
[B]Could you post the quotes from the book? Or link me it if you have it online. Don't see any contradictions, tho. That the Zabraks weren't neck and neck doesn't mean the environment didn't affect them.
The two Sith maneuvered to pin Obi-Wan against the wall--but there was so little room in the corridor that they got in each other's way. Savage charged in to strike, leaving his left arm exposed for a split second
The second statement is an easily disproven falsehood as the brothers almost immediately take opposite sides of Kenobi.
The first is false because as the brothers, who were using styles that don't take as much space as Kenobi's ataru, weren't fighting Kenobi on the same side meaning they'd have plenty of room considering the space they were fighting in was wide enough for both brothers to stand there with space between them.
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
But it doesn't take away from Maul's lack of killing intent, bro, so what's your point?
Unless of course you think contradicted parts of SC are fair game in which case I just provided you a quote explicitly stating that Maul was trying to kill Kenobi.
I'm fine with it either way because SC shows Kenobi gaining the advantage in their 1 v 1 before the cave anyway, which unlike the basis for Maul being environmentally hindered isn't contradicted by the episode.
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
? I don't quite get you, Kbro. You're telling me you'll concede that Maul and Savage weren't going all out if we ignore everything the books says about the fight? As that would hit home my initial point that the fight isn't a way to gauge Kenobi's level, it sounds perfectly fine. 👆
And it's a perfectly fine way to gauge Kenobi as long as you don't assert crap like TCW Kenobi> Maul+Oppress. Maul not fighting to kill doesn't change he was outdueled 1 v 1 and then was being held off, driven back, and kicked despite the presence of his brother by someone not utilizing their preferred style.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Try again, I'll ignore the book's explicitly showing Maul trying to kill Kenobi in a contradicted part of the book, if you don't apply double standards and try to use other parts of the book which also contradict the episode.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
And it's a perfectly fine way to gauge Kenobi as long as you don't assert crap like TCW Kenobi> Maul+Oppress.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Maul not fighting to kill doesn't change he was outdueled 1 v 1 and then was being held off, driven back, and kicked despite the presence of his brother by someone not utilizing their preferred style.
Anyway, I'm schleep.
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
[B]... Okay? Repeating yourself doesn't help you.
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
True. Let's gauge Kenobi off being Force choked- and then thrown across the cave. I'm down for that 👆
As for Maul blasting Kenobi, unfortunately, we have context here that isn't invalidated by the episode:
He lunged and sliced the Zabrak's yellow-and-black arm off at the shoulder. Savage howled in agony, retreating toward Maul as his brother shoved Obi-Wan backward with a blast of Force power. Maul stared at Obi-Wan, eyes blazing, the hatred boiling inside him. But then he regained control of his emotions, and shut off the surge of animal rage. He had bigger plans now than merely revenge, and settling the score with Obi-Wan could wait.
Maul managed to blast Kenobi when he had lost control and was using animalistic rage, not quite applicable here.
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
Maul wasn't being outdueled, though? And if we was, it would be while holding back, yet again rendering the pro-Kenobi argument useless. facepalm
Obi-Wan pushed Maul back, his mechanical legs whining, .
He shoved Maul away, moving to confront Savage, knocking him off balance as Adi fell to the ground, motionless.
Making this even worse for Maul is that Kenobi hadn't focused himself via empty meditation yet, as he does, and has done multiple times of his own will such as here:
letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there...
Then, after focusing himself we see Kenobi
-disorientate Maul
-Drive him back
-And parry or dodge all his attacks as he's handling Oppress.
Given all the above, Kenobi was indeed the superior fighter.
And yes, Maul was making sure not to kill Kenobi. However given Kenobi's use of a secondary style and that he also had to deal with Oppress, this doesn't invalidate Kenobi's superior performance.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Making this even worse for Maul is that Kenobi hadn't focused himself via empty meditation yet, as he does, and has done multiple times of his own will such as here:
Let's agree to disagree, Kbro. My free time is limited from here on out so responding would be more exhausting than usual.
Part 1
Now it’s my turn.
At best that indicates that Kit Fisto is faster than Kolar. That’s not everything. For example, we know TPM!Kenobi was faster than Qui-Gon, but obviously Qui-Gon was the better warrior and more powerful Force adept. It says nothing about how the two compare as warriors in general, or even in lightsaber skill or Force mastery.
Excuse me, but have you by any chance heard of a curious little word called “context”? It is a word that refers to the objects and entities surrounding a focal event, or as Alessandro Duranti put it in his novel Rethinking Context: Language as an Interactive Phenomenon[i], context is [i]”a frame that surrounds the event and provides resources for its appropriate interpretation.”
Appropriate interpretation indeed. For your interpretation, that TPM Obi-Wan was faster than Qui-Gon, lacked context, and thus was not an “appropriate interpretation” of the source material. You conveniently ignored the fact that Obi-Wan was under a rage-induced amplification and thus could perform at considerably higher speeds than he otherwise would. Relevant excerpts down below:
Free at last of the laser wall, Obi-Wan Kenobi charged out of the service tunnel and into the chamber that housed the melting pit. Abandoning any pretense of observing even the slightest caution, he barreled into Darth Maul with such fury that he almost knocked both of them off the ledge and into the abyss. He struck at the Sith Lord with his lightsaber as if his own safety meant nothing, lost in a red haze of rage and frustration, consumed by his grief for Qui-Gon and his failure to prevent his friend's fall.
The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, and pressed all the way back to the far wall of the melting pit. There he struggled to keep the young Jedi at bay, trying to open enough space between them to defend himself. Lightsabers scraped and grated against each other, and the chamber echoed with their fury. Lunging and twisting, Darth Maul regained the offensive and counterattacked, using both ends of his lightsaber in an effort to cut Obi-Wan's legs out from under him. But Obi-Wan, while not so experienced as Qui-Gon, was quicker. Anticipating each blow, he was able to elude his antagonist's efforts to bring him down.
--The Phantom Menace novelization
Rage: You can channel your anger into a berserker fury, increasing your battle prowess as you give yourself to the dark side.
--The Dark Side Sourcebook
So Obi-Wan was operating under levels of speed he would not be able to attain without said rage boost, or in other words, his superiority to Qui-Gon Jinn in the realm of speed was circumstantial, and thus, cannot be used as legitimate evidence for anything. Or unless you really want to, then his other showings under said amplified state must be taken into account as well:
Darth Maul began to use his command of the Force to fling heavy objects at Obi-Wan, trying to throw him off balance, to disable him, to disrupt the flow of his attack. Obi-Wan responded in kind, and the air was filled with deadly missiles. Lightsabers flicked right and left to ward off the objects, and the clash of errant metal careening off stone walls formed an eerie shriek in the gloom.
The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly.
--The Phantom Menace
Obi-Wan not only demonstrates superior speed, but also overall greater dueling and Force prowess across the board compared to Qui-Gon, being able to sever the Sith Lord’s saberstaff and stalemate him in a telekinetic battle, in contrast to Qui-Gon dying and being - aside from a few fodder tier feats - completely featless in the realms of the Force, knocking down your claim saying that “obviously Qui-Gon was the better duelist and more powerful Force adept” quite nicely. And of course when one ignores the amp, Obi-Wan doesn’t get his speed feat, and you are suddenly devoid of any evidence that a Force user can be faster but inferior in all other categories to another.
But let us go along with your idea for a moment, that just because Fisto is faster, does not mean he’s better overall. Ok. What then? Where is the argument for Kolar? What’s he got going for him in skill? You have not presented anything for him at all, nothing that’d enable him to stand against Kenobi. It is one thing when a guy makes a bad or an exceptionally shitty argument, but when one literally forgets to make an argument in a debate - now that’s on another level entirely.
You must have missed (only a few lines above, too) how it was emphasized that Ventress was studying his fighting technique to gain an advantage.
I didn’t miss it; I simply elected to ignore it because I didn’t think it worth including as it reveals nothing about the fight that is relevant. What you have presented only shows to us that Ventress knew beforehand what lightsaber form Fisto was using. That’s literally it. She didn’t see him fight with his lightsaber, she hadn’t studied his lightsaber technique at all; she simply witnessed him using some Shii-Cho unarmed moves and deduced he uses Form I. How is that an advantage? Are you seriously using that as justification for Ventress’ quick victory, and then claiming Ventress isn’t his superior in a neutral fight? Fisto went down embarrassingly quickly there, and Ventress knowing Fisto’s preferred fighting style beforehand (note how she doesn’t know any of his personal moves or how he applies his technical knowledge, just a vague outline) is not nearly a large enough factor to completely dismiss such a one-sided fight and pretend that the fact[i] that Ventress > Kit doesn’t exist, not to mention that Kit also knew what form Ventress was using as soon as she drew her blades - Jar’Kai - making this entire quote and your argument redundant.
I also find it quite amusing, how you posted a picture of cherries being picked, indirectly accusing me of cherry-picking, when cherry-picking is [i]exactly what you did up above with the Kenobi quote, ignoring several passages that completely change the meaning of the quote you were trying to pass off as evidence. I’d say this shirt fits you quite well: