Obi-Wan Kenobi (Azronger) vs Quinlan Vos, Agen Kolar, and Sora Bulq (ChocolateMuesli)

Started by Beniboybling14 pages

Look at all these sub-tier debaters getting mad that Az is crushing. Sad. :'(

Originally posted by SunRazer
lol

Tbh they still are per Siolo scaling and Yookunobider scaling.

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
one step forward

two steps back

smh

When are you gonna respond

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Look at all these sub-tier debaters getting mad that Az is crushing. Sad. :'(

Yeah Deronn is salty that I exposed his fallacious logic and brought low his moronic arguments in our debate. It truly is sad. 🙁

"Yookunobider" lmfao

wtf is yookunobider

Yookunobider = Yoda/Dooku/Kenobi/Vader

Originally posted by Azronger
Yookunobider = Yoda/Dooku/Kenobi/Vader

these 4 are all equal to each other, or what?

No, they just scale off of each other

Nah, he has these names for scaling based on the characters involved in the chain. kek

kenobi gets scaling from this? topkek

Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
kenobi gets scaling from this? topkek

He does, although that's not what I was referring to.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Look at all these sub-tier debaters getting mad that Az is crushing. Sad. :'(

Originally posted by Azronger
Yeah Deronn is salty that I exposed his fallacious logic and brought low his moronic arguments in our debate. It truly is sad. 🙁

I have yet to talk with anyone that thinks you're actually winning the debate, LMAO.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I have yet to talk with anyone that thinks you're actually winning the debate, LMAO.

Doesn't change my point 🙂

What even is your point?

The Opener
Agen Kolar is inferior to Kit Fisto, per his failure to react to Sidious at all, whereas the latter did manage to hold him off for a few blows:
We know for a fact that Kit Fisto is a level 7, as he was directly stated to on that level in lightsaber combat by Nick Gillard. Obi-Wan on the other hand is a level 8, proving that he is factually superior to Kit, and by proxy, Agen. Not to mention by an “enormous” margin, given that that is exactly how Gillard described the difference between the levels:

At best that indicates that Kit Fisto is faster than Kolar. That’s not everything. For example, we know TPM!Kenobi was faster than Qui-Gon, but obviously Qui-Gon was the better warrior and more powerful Force adept. It says nothing about how the two compare as warriors in general, or even in lightsaber skill or Force mastery.

But Obi-Wan, while not so experienced as Qui-Gon, was quicker. Anticipating each blow, he was able to elude his antagonist's efforts to bring him down.
- The Phantom Menace
Then there are Kit’s and Obi-Wan’s respective performances against Asajj Ventress to compare:

You must have missed (only a few lines above, too) how it was emphasized that Ventress was studying his fighting technique to gain an advantage.

Kit Fisto snarled, surrendering to the pull of Form I's unarmed techniques. His attack was absolute fluidity, one motion flowing into the next without a wasted effort. Heads cracked, limbs twisted against their joints, and X'Ting flipped howling into the lake.

Ventress stood back, her eyes watching, and Obi-Wan knew she was waiting, learning about her opponents.

The cavern was awash with whirling bodies. These were lackeys, and Ventress would sacrifice every one of them to learn what she wished to know. She knew the Jedi wouldn't just cut them down. She was watching, and studying, and saving the moment for herself. The Jedi's unarmed tactics would reveal their lightsaber technique: there was nothing they could do to prevent it.
- The Cestus Deception

So obviously, Ventress > Kit Fisto isn't a thing based on The Cestus Deception, as under more fair conditions, he would most likely have fared better. Your Kenobi >> Ventress, Ventress > Kit Fisto, Kit Fisto > Kolar, therefore Kenobi >>> Kolar argument doesn't really work. Kit Fisto > Kolar isn't actually a thing (except in speed), and neither is Ventress > Kit Fisto.

A significantly pre-prime Kenobi fights evenly with a foe that very quickly dispatched Kolar’s superior. Even this iteration of Kenobi would be capable of defeating Kolar in less than 30 seconds.

Given that the General was an equal of TCW Kenobi, it is likely that RotS Kenobi could humiliate his TCW counterpart just as thoroughly, and given that TCW Kenobi is already capable of beating Kolar extremely swiftly, I’d say RotS Kenobi could outright stomp him.

Those 2 points are obviously redundant now, after I addressed the whole Ventress > Kit Fisto > Agen Kolar fiasco above.

On to your single point about Vos:

Given Kolar’s vast inferiority to Kenobi, I doubt Vos would even perceive Kenobi’s movements, much less last more than a single swing.

First off, Kolar's vast inferiority to Kenobi has yet to been established. Second, remind me when Kenobi last blitzed another notable Jedi.

I'm not much for trading speed feats, inevitable inconsistencies in mind, but here's one for Vos, where he appears to leave several afterimages after his lightsaber. It's a pretty good feat, even by higher standards. I don't see Kenobi blitzing him, given that he failed to blitz opponents of similar speed to Vos, such as Ventress and Savage.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/3846580-blur+speeds.png

Also, you seem to indicate that someone who is able to last a swing is better than someone unable to perceive a person's movements. Given that Maul, who's an level 8 {https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/17/73/92/12/ng10.png} just like Kenobi, was unable to perceive Sidious' movements, that would mean Kit Fisto > Maul and Kenobi (according to your logic about Kit Fisto > Kolar because Kit wasn't immediately blitzed), right? Point being: Kit isn't better than Kolar because he didn't get blitzed, or else he would be better than Kenobi too, but that would conflict with the idea of Kit being a level 7 and Obi-Wan being a level 8. Just pointing out a flaw(s) in your logic.

The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me. Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.
- Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

On to Bulq, my last guy.

Sora Bulq was only a Vos-level duelist, and was defeated by him, so he goes down in a single swing as well:

Nah. Vos and Bulq traded a few blows while Bulq (and Dooku) were goading Vos into rage. Bulq has more going for him than that, such as mastering all forms {http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=15161114} and giving Mace a good fight:

http://i.imgur.com/ofDIdRk.png
http://i.imgur.com/ZA2oRws.png
http://i.imgur.com/LbHm2ym.png
http://i.imgur.com/2ywjoTH.png

Now, Bulq did lose pretty fast to Dooku. There's a bit of inconsistency there, but I think a fair middle ground is that he's good enough to present a moderate challenge to them. He obviously doesn't go down in a single swing.

Obi-Wan is so much better than any member of the team here it’s not even funny.
And while you may say he’s not better than them collectively, the strength of numbers is irrelevant when Obi-Wan is literally capable of speedblitzing Bulq and Vos in just a single swing. Kolar doesn’t fare much better.

Kenobi isn't blitzing anyone here, not even close. To my knowledge, he has never blitzed any notable Force user, and they've their own showings (fighting Mace, afterimages, etc.), so they are all more than capable of lasting beyond one swing. Bulq is at least as technically skilled as Kenobi, given his mastery of all forms, and is able to present a decent challenge to Mace, who is better than Kenobi. Kolar stomped Vos, whose own feats, while not considerable, are decent; he held the edge against both Tholme and Aayla Secura, I believe, and has a myriad of decent to good speed- and Force feats - while not as good as Bulq nor Kolar, he's a third lightsaber for Kenobi to worry about. With comparable lightsaber skill and speed, and Kenobi's lack of offensive Force powers (he's got some moderately good TK feats, that's all), as well as it being a 3 vs. 1, I personally see it as a pretty decisive victory for my side. They simply overwhelm him.

Good counter, the use of images and gifs turn it into an auto stomp. Some holes here and there but it's a lot less...bold...than the post that preceded it

Originally posted by Azronger
Opinions can shift very quickly, mate. I no longer believe Rebels is Maul's prime, and I now fully believe DE Sidious could one-shot RotS Sidious easily.

They shifted a lot very quickly. But fair enough.

I do like the first part of your statement, the second one... one-shotting might honestly be taking it too far.

Nice counter, Chocolate.