Originally posted by Surtur
I don't know what gave you this idea they don't believe in it. It's not like they are ignoring the antics of a group that hates nazis but burns the flag of the country that helped defeat them, admits they are communists, gets upset when called patriots, and says they hate the constitution...all the while committing acts of violence of varying degrees.
My bad, they don't believe in a democratic view of government.
Hmmm... I've sort of developed a theory for Antifa's bullshittery - They are afraid. They are afraid of being attacked first by any number of opponents, from right wing extremists like the Neo Nazi/White Supremacists. Unfortunately fear often manifests itself into violent action at the drop of a hat, and any perceived slight or even aggressive wording will pull the trigger on violent response.
This is not apologist bullshit either, because I disagree on having such a delicate hairtrigger temper. Having a trigger that sensitive means you'll pop like a violent explosion if someone farts in your general direction... from behind a barricade.... on the other side of a busy street....
Yes, there is legit reason to be cautious of unexpected attacks at rallys and protests or even just public gatherings and festivals. But allowing that fear to dictate emotion fuelled violent outbreaks means that the REAL terrorists of the world always win. Because now they have their enemies civilian populations maiming and killing themselves in fear.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hmmm... I've sort of developed a theory for Antifa's bullshittery - They are afraid. They are afraid of being attacked first by any number of opponents, from right wing extremists like the Neo Nazi/White Supremacists. Unfortunately fear often manifests itself into violent action at the drop of a hat, and any perceived slight or even aggressive wording will pull the trigger on violent response.This is not apologist bullshit either, because I disagree on having such a delicate hairtrigger temper. Having a trigger that sensitive means you;ll pop like a violent explosion if someone farts in your general direction... from behind a barricade.... on the other side of a busy street....
Yes, there is legit reason to be cautious of unexpected attacks at rallys and protests or even just public gatherings and festivals. But allowing that fear to dictate emotion fuelled violent outbreaks means that the REAL terrorists of the world always win. Because now they have their enemies civilian populations maiming and killing themselves in fear.
Fear can do crazy things to people I will give you that. But I have another theory. You know how it is said that Trump winning emboldened the KKK and the nazis and all that? I wonder if this hasn't also emboldened Antifa, and these are people who want to tear the country down. They hate the government, they hate the constitution, and they have seen an opportunity to spread this message under the guise of fighting "fascism".
It is also spreading, they are getting bolder, interrupting more things, and IMO inspiring others just like the KKK or nazis can. Some dude came up and pepper sprayed some people at a civil war re-enactment, they were the confederates of course. It's not murder or close to it, but it's just a sign of how this is escalating. Btw the man who did it was a former principal who was also armed with a legal conceal and carry weapon., but failed to mention that to the cops.
Originally posted by Surtur
Fear can do crazy things to people I will give you that. But I have another theory. You know how it is said that Trump winning emboldened the KKK and the nazis and all that? I wonder if this hasn't also emboldened Antifa, and these are people who want to tear the country down. They hate the government, they hate the constitution, and they have seen an opportunity to spread this message under the guise of fighting "fascism".
I don't think it emboldened them. IIRC, the vast majority of ANTIFA is made up of college students and older teenagers. Big enough to cause a lot of damage an do adult things like have copious amounts of premarital sex, smoke weed, and drink a gutload of alchohol, but young, naive and stupid enough to get incredibly irrationally emotional over the smallest things that make even Joffrey Baratheon seem sane.
Outside of this rank and file cannonfodder, you then come to the few adults, who may actually be left wing estremist whackjob f@cknuts, who fuel that fire of fear and implore dangerously stupid acts be carried out to send fear back at those they hate.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I don't think it emboldened them. IIRC, the vast majority of ANTIFA is made up of college students and older teenagers. Big enough to cause a lot of damage an do adult things like have copious amounts of premarital sex, smoke weed, and drink a gutload of alchohol, but young, naive and stupid enough to get incredibly irrationally emotional over the smallest things that make even Joffrey Baratheon seem sane.Outside of this rank and file cannonfodder, you then come to the few adults, who may actually be left wing estremist whackjob f@cknuts, who fuel that fire of fear and implore dangerously stupid acts be carried out to send fear back at those they hate.
If it didn't embolden them I do not know how you explain the increased amount of violence? This group existed before Trump.
I find it potentially dangerous to chalk all this up to irrational teens. It is growing larger than that now.
Originally posted by Surtur
If it didn't embolden them I do not know how you explain the increased amount of violence? This group existed before Trump.I find it potentially dangerous to chalk all this up to irrational teens. It is growing larger than that now.
I addressed that in the 2nd paragraph. It's certain firebrand nutters that fuel the flames. Trump's election didn't technically embolden, but perhaps it was the straw that broke the back, considering that they don't believe he was elected legitimately, not does he represent the views of those who elected him.
It's not going to matter to the firebrands, or the brainwashed kids they control wether that is true or not, it's an excuse.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I addressed that in the 2nd paragraph. It's certain firebrand nutters that fuel the flames. Trump's election didn't technically embolden, but perhaps it was the straw that broke the back, considering that they don't believe he was elected legitimately, not does he represent the views of those who elected him.It's not going to matter to the firebrands, or the brainwashed kids they control wether that is true or not, it's an excuse.
Then I have to ask, would you agree with those who claim the KKK and nazis were emboldened? The "straw that broke the back" thing applies to that too I would say.
Originally posted by Surtur
Then I have to ask, would you agree with those who claim the KKK and nazis were emboldened? The "straw that broke the back" thing applies to that too I would say.
No. It's a false comparative - apples to oranges. And not by a small margin either. That is like comparing a child practicing with a wooden sword training to murder people to the evil of the Black Demonic Necromancer Knight of 50 million Evils. It's not even remotely comparable.
The Facist movement, especially the Nazis, have had a demonstrable history of atrocity. They were hanging African Americans simply for being black as far back as the American Civil War. It's even prevelant here in Australia, as close and as recently as the 80s, many while folk in the Northern territory had considered running over Aboriginals in their cars as some kind of sick, demented sport. And lets not even talk about the shitstain on history that was the first and second world wars. That needs no explanation as to how bad Facism was demonstrated to be. Comparing that kind of history of truly horrible things to the actions of a rebellious grassroots youth movement is... kinda f@cked up, wouldn't you say?
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No. It's a false comparative - apples to oranges. And not by a small margin either. That is like comparing a child practicing with a wooden sword training to murder people to the evil of the Black Demonic Necromancer Knight of 50 million Evils. It's not even remotely comparable.The Facist movement, especially the Nazis, have had a demonstrable history of atrocity. They were hanging African Americans simply for being black as far back as the American Civil War. It's even prevelant here in Australia, as close and as recently as the 80s, many while folk in the Northern territory had considered running over Aboriginals in their cars as some kind of sick, demented sport. And lets not even talk about the shitstain on history that was the first and second world wars. That needs no explanation as to how bad Facism was demonstrated to be. Comparing that kind of history of truly horrible things to the actions of a rebellious grassroots youth movement is... kinda f@cked up, wouldn't you say?
I thought we were talking about the now. You are absolutley correct that the Nazis and Racist far right have been terrible, monstrous people. No one can seriously argue against that point. Hell, the current far right movement doesn't even compare to the atrocities their counterparts committed in the past. I think that speaks to the progress we have made. It's clearly not enough, but progress has been made. Right now though, people are not being hung from trees with regularity (although it shouldn't be done at all).
In the present, judging both groups by what they are currently doing, they aren't far apart in their violent natures imo. It is true that the Neo Nazis have killed people, but imo, the Antifa group will do this eventually. Their stabbing and brick throwing could easily have killed someone.
Their idealogies are different, but their methods are starting to look very similar. When push comes to shove, I would ultimately side with the left's view of anti-racism, but I don't think you help the cause with violence and intimidation. There was a time when that was almost solely for the right extremists.
Originally posted by socool8520
I thought we were talking about the now. You are absolutley correct that the Nazis and Racist far right have been terrible, monstrous people. No one can seriously argue against that point. Hell, the current far right movement doesn't even compare to the atrocities their counterparts committed in the past. I think that speaks to the progress we have made. It's clearly not enough, but progress has been made. Right now though, people are not being hung from trees with regularity (although it shouldn't be done at all).In the present, judging both groups by what they are currently doing, they aren't far apart in their violent natures imo. It is true that the Neo Nazis have killed people, but imo, the Antifa group will do this eventually. Their stabbing and brick throwing could easily have killed someone.
Their idealogies are different, but their methods are starting to look very similar. When push comes to shove, I would ultimately side with the left's view of anti-racism, but I don't think you help the cause with violence and intimidation. There was a time when that was almost solely for the right extremists.
I don't think you are looking at this with the right context. I'm not saying that the Facists are guilty directly of the same sins as the Nazis or any other old Facist crimes, BUT, they are guilty of knowingly and deliberately following the same ideology that sparked those crimes of the past.
That one fact completely quashes any moral supremacy they may have had over Antifa, who for all intents and purposes are a rebel youth movement. They have.... good intentions, but the methods are at best that of adeolescence - violent and stupid. And at worst, trying to fight a much bigger fire, with fire.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I don't think you are looking at this with the right context. I'm not saying that the Facists are guilty directly of the same sins as the Nazis or any other old Facist crimes, BUT, they are guilty of knowingly and deliberately following the same ideology that sparked those crimes of the past.That one fact completely quashes any moral supremacy they may have had over Antifa, who for all intents and purposes are a rebel youth movement. They have.... good intentions, but the methods are at best that of adeolescence - violent and stupid. And at worst, trying to fight a much bigger fire, with fire.
Oh absolutely, I agree. It's just that that shouldn't take the heat off of another group acting a lot like them with their voilent behavior. I would never argue that the Nazi group's behavior and ideology isn't deplorable. That's just crazy.
You know what they say about the road to Hell and good intentions. lol I don't think they have a moral supremacy over Antifa, far from it, but just because one side is really bad does not give you the right to mimic their violence regardless of age. If they were attacking any other group, there would be no question at to how terrible Antifa is acting, so if we look past that, we can look at their actions objectively. When you do that, they are a bunch of thugs attacking people.
Let's not forget that this group has attacked Trump rallies which aren't inherently Nazi.