Originally posted by thesithmaster
Knightfall Vader was never placed on par with Sidious. There are roughly seven quotes stating Sidious was the most powerful, opposed to two that state Vader is the most powerful (it's obvious which one of the stances is right- the one backed up by seven sources opposed to the one backed by two) and Lucas was talking about Vader's potential.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
Anakins potential is >>> Sidious' tho lmfao
Yes, his potential was Sidious+ before the thing, and he was as strong as the Emperor in the Force, but when he got crippled he wasn't as strong, and he was like Maul or Dooku as in that his potential was inferior to Palpatine's.
Originally posted by Geistalt
You obviously haven't read the quotes (hint: they don't say he was stronger than RotS Sidious).And even then, there's ambiguity as to whether or not he was exactly as strong or his point of view was skewed with hubris.
Read the quote: it says Palpatine wanted someone who WOULD become more powerful than him (which means that he didn't have someone more powerful than him) but that his plan got screwed up by Obi-Wan, crippling Vader and making him like Maul+Dooku, guys whose potential was below Sidious'. He wasn't as strong as the Emperor in Force POTENTIAL which does not equate to actual power that is usable in combat. KF Vader definitely has more potential, but he hasn't unlocked it.
And what does the second one prove? It says Vader's power was growing, and that Vader knew how powerful Sidious was. Even if Vader claimed parity with Sidious his arrogant opinion matters nothing when seven quotes say Sidious was the most powerful as of ROTS.
The quotes I was talking about weren't the ones you posted. They labeled Vader's Force abilities as unparalleled and Vader as far more dangerous than anyone in the universe. However, seven other quotes say Sidious was the most powerful.
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Yes, his potential was Sidious+ before the thing, and he was as strong as the Emperor in the Force, but when he got crippled he wasn't as strong, and he was like Maul or Dooku as in that his potential was inferior to Palpatine's.
As strong as means equal to...to what should he refer, then? (Hint >>> =/= equal).
Originally posted by Geistalt
Sidious: *fails to ragdoll Vader*
Luke: *ragdolls someone stronger than Vader*
NewGuy01: "Sidious is still stronger."
Lol, nice strawman. I would be interested in seeing you provide an instance of Sidious trying and failing to TK Vader, though, because nothing like that comes to mind.
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Read the quote: it says Palpatine wanted someone who WOULD become more powerful than him (which means that he didn't have someone more powerful than him)
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Knightfall Vader was never placed on par with Sidious. There are roughly seven quotes stating Sidious was the most powerful, opposed to two that state Vader is the most powerful (it's obvious which one of the stances is right- the one backed up by seven sources opposed to the one backed by two) and Lucas was talking about Vader's potential.
Anyways, dumbassery aside, 1 through 5 look pretty set in stone.
5. Valkorion
6. Darth Nihilus
7. Darth Plagueis
8. Darth Krayt (for using Dark Transfer to resurrect himself and punching out Abeloth)
9. Kyp Durron
10. Raynar Thul
11. Revan
12. Darth Caedus
8-12 look up for debate, most of all.
I ought to make versus threads for them.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
How can you possibly conclude that "Anakin is as strong as sidious" is talking bout potential when Sidious has vastly inferior potential to Anakin? 😬
If you're much better than someone, then you need to be at least as strong as them. Vader was no longer as strong as Sidious in the Force. He was weaker. What George was trying to say was that after Vader was crippled he lost lots of his Force potential, and that Vader was weaker than Sidious. So, no longer stronger than Sidious, not even as strong as Sidious. It's not rocket science.
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Knightfall Vader was never placed on par with Sidious.
Eh, not necessarily.
There's perhaps a dozen quotes stating Anakin's the most powerful Jedi. Considering Yoda has quotes too, it's fair to break even and put them on par.
We also have quotes (and feats) to demonstrate that Anakin is the greatest warrior of the era, in which Sidious isn't exempt.
With KF!Vader, we're dealing with an even more powerful version than Jedi Anakin, who was someone Yoda level in Force power and Yoda+ level in combat.
Everything considered, I think it's clear KF!Vader can trade blows with Sidious. Defeat him? Probably not, principally due to character differences, but it's close.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Eh, not necessarily.There's perhaps a dozen quotes stating Anakin's the most powerful Jedi. Considering Yoda has quotes too, it's fair to break even and put them on par.
We also have quotes (and feats) to demonstrate that Anakin is the greatest warrior of the era, in which Sidious isn't exempt.
With KF!Vader, we're dealing with an even more powerful version than Jedi Anakin, who was someone Yoda level in Force power and Yoda+ level in combat.
Everything considered, I think it's clear KF!Vader can trade blows with Sidious. Defeat him? Probably not, principally due to character differences, but it's close.
A dozen? I counted, like, five. At best. Discounting maybe a character opinion or two. Yoda has more quotes. It's not fair to put them on par. More sources have Yoda as the most powerful, thus Yoda is the most powerful.
Anakin's feats do not match up to Sidious at all and we have two quotes that claim Anakin is the best. We have seven putting Sidious as the most powerful. Obviously, Sidious>Anakin. One or two quotes mean nothing when we have seven stating otherwise.
Anakin was not Yoda level in Force. Statements debunk this, feats do too. Yoda+level in combat is also ludicrous. They're equal in technical skill but bar one statement Yoda has much better feats physically- stalemating Sidious who moved faster than Anakin can see and has much better speed feats than Anakin. Even pre-prime. Yoda is above Anakin. In nearly if not every category relevant to combat.
And by trading blows, it depends. If it's clashing blades a few times, yes. Threatening Sidious? Having a close fight with him? Absolutely out of Vader's capabilities.