Darth Vader vs. Exar Kun (Force)

Started by lazybones4 pages
lazybones Senior Member

Originally posted by MythLord
Sure, since Mace eventually surpassed him by 19 BBY; but he's still more powerful than 22 BBY Mace.
But then, you have to contend with the fact that Mace, who should be a better authority on the matter, did in fact consider Vastor's power on par with pre-suit Anakin and Yoda. If post-suit 18BBY Vader is far more powerful than Vastor, then that would mean he is also far more powerful than the likes of Yoda. That would put him far above ROTS Sidious, who is factually Vader's superior... It also doesn't add up with how Vader envisaged Muur, whom a Yoda tier (or even approaching Yoda tier) character would snuff out easily. Seems like a total mess, really.

Now, it could make sense if the quotes are referring to potential, rather than power. But then, the scaling doesn't work. You don't rank characters by potential, but on realised power. Otherwise TPM Anakin>Yoda.

lazybones Senior Member

Originally posted by lazybones

Now, it could make sense if the quotes are referring to potential, rather than power. But then, the scaling doesn't work. You don't rank characters by potential, but on realised power. Otherwise TPM Anakin>Yoda.

Actually, I'll take that back. The idea of Vastor even having equal potential than Anakin and/or Yoda is even more ridiculous. Anakin was literally conceived by midichlorians, for goodness sake.

Realised power isn't all that better either. Broken, suited Vader being far more powerful than a supposedly Windu level force user? Doesn't add up unless you assume Kenobi, who was always inferior to Mace, grew vastly by ANH, where he matched Vader, and in Legends the opposite occurred.

MythLord Diamond

Ben never matched Vader as a Force user, though.

Also, one is Mace's opinion which is fallible, whereas this is by narration. The difference is one is objective, the other is not.

lazybones Senior Member

Originally posted by MythLord
Ben never matched Vader as a Force user, though.
Well, Vader didn't opt to attack Kenobi with the force in any way, despite having every reason to do so if he could. And if he was already far above a Windu tier force user as of 18BBY, and had 18 years to grow between then and ANH, then he should have easily been able to dominate Kenobi in the force, like a Windu-level force user in Dooku was able to do to a stronger version of Kenobi.

Also, one is Mace's opinion which is fallible, whereas this is by narration. The difference is one is objective, the other is not.
So in that case, we would still be saying that Darth Vader is far more powerful than someone who is comparable to Mace as of 18BBY. Hard to reconcile with his inability to touch Kenobi with the force, who isn't truly comparable to force users of Dooku/Windu's calibre, and should have been eviscerated by the allegedly Windu/Dooku++ force user that Vader was in ANH, as per the Vastor scaling.

MythLord Diamond

Originally posted by lazybones
Well, Vader didn't opt to attack Kenobi with the force in any way, despite having every reason to do so if he could. And if he was already far above a Windu tier force user as of 18BBY, and had 18 years to grow between then and ANH, then he should have easily been able to dominate Kenobi in the force, like a Windu-level force user in Dooku was able to do to a stronger version of Kenobi.

So in that case, we would still be saying that Darth Vader is far more powerful than someone who is comparable to Mace as of 18BBY. Hard to reconcile with his inability to touch Kenobi with the force, who isn't truly comparable to force users of Dooku/Windu's calibre, and should have been eviscerated by the allegedly Windu/Dooku++ force user that Vader was in ANH, as per the Vastor scaling.

Your entire case hinges on Vader not using TK against Kenobi in a source where, really, TK abuse isn't something often seen. There's also the fact that the duel was fairly brief by all standards and there's plenty of examples where considerably more powerful Force users don't opt to use TK in the middle of a fight to take out an opponent.

It's not really uncommon and there's a lot of foes Vader didn't use TK on; doesn't mean he couldn't.

Rockydonovang freedom fighter

Originally posted by lazybones
inferior to Mace, grew vastly by ANH, where he matched Vader, and in Legends the opposite occurred.

Kenobi notes he grew much more powerful post ROTS actually.

Darth Thor Senior Member

Jeez the days of Vader and Ben being shadows of their former selves is long gone. Even in Legends.

lazybones Senior Member

Originally posted by MythLord
Your entire case hinges on Vader not using TK against Kenobi in a source where, really, TK abuse isn't something often seen.
This is a fair point, ANH is a tame source compared to the EU and most other sources. However, the reason why Vader didn't ragdoll Ben was probably more due to the fact that, at that point in time, the writers believed Ben to be superior of the two:

https://books.google.co.uk/books/content?id=eQ7ct2r14w0C&pg=PA214&img=1&pgis=1&dq=stronger&sig=ACfU3U0VLgrmWvUNV3CF5E6mJGyfXEFMHQ&edge=0

Source: Star Wars, Annotated Screenplays

That was the idea at the time, but now if we just take a feat-by-feat, accolade-by-accolade, comparison, minus Vastor scaling, then Vader is clearly superior in force power, but not to an extent in which he could ragdoll beyond any doubt. We know things have changed, but it's reconcilable.

The problem with the Vastor scaling is that it elevates Vader so highly that Vader should have ragdolled Kenobi with considerably greater ease than Dooku did, but didn't, despite a saber confrontation being a far more dangerous prospect for Vader, and Vader's intense hatred that would logically lead him to want to pummel and destroy Kenobi. It's not reconcilable, unless we choose to believe that Vader allowed himself to be drawn into a confrontation which could have left chopped up and broken once again.

There's also the fact that the duel was fairly brief by all standards and there's plenty of examples where considerably more powerful Force users don't opt to use TK in the middle of a fight to take out an opponent.

It's not really uncommon and there's a lot of foes Vader didn't use TK on; doesn't mean he couldn't.

Vader not opting to ragdoll certain force users could be pinned down to him simply wishing to toy with those individuals, though, or to give his saber skills a bit of healthy, safe practice. He toyed with ESB Luke, for example.

But as I've said, a saber confrontation with Kenobi was a very dangerous prospect for Vader, and I'm don't know why he would risk holding back like that.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Kenobi notes he grew much more powerful post ROTS actually.
Canon or Legends source? If Canon, then it doesn't apply here because we're talking Legends Vader. If Legends, then it doesn't apply because that would be Kenobi's fallible opinion, which is overwritten by the objective, third-person source (Insider #62, I believe) which states Ben/Vader were 'shadows of their former selves'.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Jeez the days of Vader and Ben being shadows of their former selves is long gone. Even in Legends.
Objective third person source that retcons the Insider #62 'shadow of former selves' quote in Legends?

Darth Thor Senior Member
Originally posted by lazybones

Objective third person source that retcons the Insider #62 'shadow of former selves' quote in Legends?

Quotes are not the all and end all. They get retconned all the time, and sometimes contradict the highest form of Canon ( like Yoda being no match for Palpatine ).

Since around the time of TFU it's been clear Vader clearly is a match of his former self. His feats are just too insane. And Old Ben holding his own against him shows Ben clearly hasn't declined either.

Plus the multitude of third person sources backed up by feats and showings can't just be ignored.

lazybones Senior Member

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Quotes are not the all and end all.
You know, I do sympathise with this somewhat. Quotes shouldn't be clung to as gospel, and should always be weighted with other facts and information. Here, I'm not giving the 'shadow of their former selves' total weight, per se. I'm just saying that's the strongest source on the matter as it's both objective and third person. I'll concede Vader and Ben likely grew in terms of mastery and knowledge, but as long as the 'shadow of their former selves' quote still stands, then they very likely declined in terms of combative power, especially when they've been out of practice, and Ben Kenobi in particular would have been devoting his time to mastering non-combative aspects of the force (ie. The Living Force).

They get retconned all the time, and sometimes contradict the highest form of Canon ( like Yoda being no match for Palpatine ).
Yeah, but the Insider #62 'shadow of former selves' quote hasn't been explicitly retconned by a source of similar weight, so it should be treated as the #No 1 source on the matter until that happens. That said, being No 1 source does not mean that source is the be all and end all, but it should be given more weight than other interpretations barring more explicit contradictions.

Since around the time of TFU it's been clear Vader clearly is a match of his former self. His feats are just too insane. And Old Ben holding his own against him shows Ben clearly hasn't declined either.
I disagree, honestly. Pre-suit Anakin was capable of moving a large dreadnought at a speed fast enough to intercept missiles and held back an extremely potent theta storm for almost one hour. He also collapsed a 90x30m dome with a mere Force scream, a display of raw power that terrified Dooku. All of these, except the last, were accomplished before Anakin's massive power leap during the Outer Rim Sieges, making them even more impressive. By the time RotS rolls around, Anakin is being touted as the most powerful Jedi in the Order by some sources, which would potentially put him in league with Yoda, which post-suit Vader certainly is not. Again, Vader may have acquired more mastery and knowledge, but his raw power has been said to decline, due to significant psychological and physical restraints (mainly the former). Ben didn't really have those constraints, so it's possible he did grow in some ways, but mostly not in the combative aspects of the force.

Plus the multitude of third person sources backed up by feats and showings can't just be ignored.
See 1st/2nd response.

Rockydonovang freedom fighter

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Jeez the days of Vader and Ben being shadows of their former selves is long gone. Even in Legends.

I mean, they were as duelists, but this doesn't necessarily apply to force power. Kenobi outright states he's become more powerful.

Rockydonovang freedom fighter

Originally posted by lazybones
Well, Vader didn't opt to attack Kenobi with the force in any way, despite having every reason to do so if he could. And if he was already far above a Windu tier force user as of 18BBY, and had 18 years to grow between then and ANH, then he should have easily been able to dominate Kenobi in the force

Reverse scaling isn't a thing, and Ben Kenobi is more powerful than his ROTS counterpart.

lazybones Senior Member

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
I mean, they were as duelists, but this doesn't necessarily apply to force power. Kenobi outright states he's become more powerful.
Again, some reference please. Where does Kenobi note this? In what continuity? And besides, I have conceded that Kenobi could definitely have grown in some ways, but mainly in the non-combative aspects of the force, like the Living Force, which Kenobi could be referring to.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Reverse scaling isn't a thing, and Ben Kenobi is more powerful than his ROTS counterpart.
Don't know why it's invalid in this instance. Kenobi was decisively inferior to a Windu-level force user as of RotS. That's a fact. Even assuming he grew vastly between RotS-ANH (and I'm not totally sure he did), that would still put him around the Dooku/Windu level or just above, whereas Vader is far, far above that as per the Vastor scaling (as he was already >>Windu as of 18BBY, and then grew for 18 years up until ANH). The gap between Vader-Kenobi, by this scaling, is much bigger than the gap that was present between Dooku-Kenobi. Therefore, it's reasonable to ask - What the hell happened? Why would he hold back his force powers against an enemy, that unlike the others he has faced, could legitimately beat him in a saber contest, and who he has a massive grudge against? Yes, I recognise that ANH is in fact a tame medium, and pointed out that the original idea was Ben>Vader, but no-one is going to go back and edit ANH to align with the new ideas. And since movies/their novelizations have always taken precedence over the rest of the EU, any interpretation of Vader's standing needs to align with what we see there (ie. no ragdolling, no force attacks even attempted, therefore no overwhelming disparity). If some new scaling or accolade comes out that simply cannot be reconciled, then that scaling and accolade should be given less weight than normal. Not totally ignored, of course, since it's canonical, objective and third person, but the interpretation of it should be more on the conservative side (ie, the quote just proves that Vader was still comparable to Mace in some ways as of 18BBY).

XSUPREMEXSKILLZ The Immortal Emperor
Originally posted by MythLord
Sure, since Mace eventually surpassed him by 19 BBY; but he's still more powerful than 22 BBY Mace.

Just saw this. The quote isn't referring to Mace Windu, it's referring to Jedi in general. And if it was referring to Mace, (which it isn't,) it would be referring to Mace at the time he fought Vastor, based on the context.

Essentially, the quote says that Vastor was stronger than any of the Korunnai, stronger than any [beings] in the galaxy, perhaps, save for the Jedi. It's not saying:

Vastor was stronger than any of the Korunnai, stronger than any Korunnai in the galaxy, perhaps, save for the Jedi (Windu).

godemperortrump Restricted

Kun seperates Vader's spirit from his body for fun.

BlueTiger1144 Senior Member

^LMFAO

godemperortrump Restricted

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
^LMFAO

Not an argument

Rockydonovang freedom fighter
Originally posted by lazybones
Again, some reference please. Where does Kenobi note this? In what continuity? And besides, I have conceded that Kenobi could definitely have grown in some ways, but mainly in the non-combative aspects of the force, like the Living Force, which Kenobi could be referring to.

"Kenobi gauged the shrinking distance between the oncoming troops and himself, then turned a pitying gaze on Vader. "This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting."

And no, unless you have proof of that, I'm not going to be assuming that Ben was only growing in ways which wouldn't make him a more powerful combatant. The notion of having a stronger connection to the source of your power not making you powerful is illogical.

Originally posted by lazybones
Don't know why it's invalid in this instance. Kenobi was decisively inferior to a Windu-level force user as of RotS. That's a fact. Even assuming he grew vastly between RotS-ANH (and I'm not totally sure he did), that would still put him around the Dooku/Windu level or just above, whereas Vader is far, far above that as per the Vastor scaling (as he was already >>Windu as of 18BBY, and then grew for 18 years up until ANH). The gap between Vader-Kenobi, by this scaling, is much bigger than the gap that was present between Dooku-Kenobi. Therefore, it's reasonable to ask - What the hell happened? Why would he hold back his force powers against an enemy, that unlike the others he has faced, could legitimately beat him in a saber contest, and who he has a massive grudge against? Yes, I recognise that ANH is in fact a tame medium, and pointed out that the original idea was Ben>Vader, but no-one is going to go back and edit ANH to align with the new ideas. And since movies/their novelizations have always taken precedence over the rest of the EU, any interpretation of Vader's standing needs to align with what we see there (ie. no ragdolling, no force attacks even attempted, therefore no overwhelming disparity). If some new scaling or accolade comes out that simply cannot be reconciled, then that scaling and accolade should be given less weight than normal. Not totally ignored, of course, since it's canonical, objective and third person, but the interpretation of it should be more on the conservative side (ie, the quote just proves that Vader was still comparable to Mace in some ways as of 18BBY).

Nonsense, allVastor scaling does is put a pre-prime Vader above a pre-prime Mace in power. The implication that Vader is>>>Mace isoneyou've drawn from thin air.

And no, second guessing authorial intent isn't enough here. The fact is, Ben and Vader are shown to be close as combants which leaves your assertion that Vader could ragdoll Ben if he pleases baseless. If Vader was legitimately the Mace;/Dooku stomper you claim he is(he isn't), that would just raise Ben as well.

lazybones Senior Member

Lol, pretty late reply. Anyway, I'll probably respond more in length sometime in the next couple days, but I don't think you're really getting the point I was making. I'm not advocating for the Vastor scaling. I'm simply pointing out how ludicrously high it would elevate Vader, and how that wouldn't fit with his performance against Ben in ANH. It puts Vader, as of 18BBY, far above a combatant that was > slightly pre-Prime Mace, which should give him enough power to ragdoll a sub-Windu opponent in Kenobi, yet we clearly don't see that. Therefore, I don't take the scaling at face value, because it doesn't seem to add up.

Also objective source>subjective source, so I'm not sure why the 'shadow of former selves' quote still doesn't take priority over Kenobi's vague musings. Yes, Kenobi could have grown in some ways (living on as a ghost after death is proof of this), but overall/combatively? That Insider quote would seem to eliminate that possibility.

The Merchant Senior Member

Kuns force ghost was powerful enough to give Kyp enough power to remove the Sun Crusher from the core of Yavin Prime, and his unmastered amulet blasts punched holes through Massassi temple walls which can withstand TIE bombings which can deal significant damage to a capital ship. Luke also says his teachings made Kyp "his greatest enemy"