Originally posted by DarthSkywalker0
This may be true; however, Yoda nor Luke possessed any substantial about the power of the Ones. Luke's memory of the story was hazy as well, so I doubt he would remember it in a passing comment.
It wasn't a passing comment. Per the text, it was an account of the mission Skywalker, Kenobi, and Tano took. We don't know how much Luke did or did not know of their power - but the fact is that he did know about them.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Apocalypse also confirms that up until the point where Abeloth's history was revealed, Luke never brought up that tale because he thought it was a parable rather than an actual literal happening.
That's because the event itself does sound more like a parable than an action report, not because the information Yoda provided lacked any degree of specificity.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Luke did know about the Mortis Anchorites. Yoda regaled him of the tale while on Dagobah, remember? He mentions it in Apocalypse.Which times were those?
1. I mean sure, he knew they existed, but it's not like they were still alive so that he could feel the scope of their power relative to Sheev's. Nor does Yoda know how powerful the Ones are, and Luke even thought that Yoda was just making up a story, (i.e. he didn't think they actually existed, and wouldn't be comparing them to DE Sidious). Hell, "The dark side's most powerful expression" doesn't even seem to be referring to the context of history, anyways.
2. Against UnuThul, against Caedus, oneness against Abeloth, against DE Palpatine, and IIRC he goes oneness during the NJO as well.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
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[*]I forgot how complex the Holocron creation is.
[*]I don't think the comparison is quite as decisive as you portray it to be: the Codex entry on Dramath's Holocron says young Tenebrae "discovered a way" to pervert a Holocron's lattice to trap souls. It doesn't actually say he literally created one from scratch as Bane attempted to do. He might well have altered a pre-existing one. Still impressive, of course, but Bane wasn't attempting such an experiment.
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1. Indeed.
2. Even if we assume that Tenebrae didn't outright create a holocron, he still literally perverted the holocron so that it could capture powerful force users and erase or imprison "immortal spirits" from existence. At age 10.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It wasn't a passing comment. Per the text, it was an account of the mission Skywalker, Kenobi, and Tano took. We don't know how much Luke did or did not know of their power - but the fact is that he did know about them.
He might have known of them, but he thought the story was conjured up.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
1. I mean sure, he knew they existed, but it's not like they were still alive so that he could feel the scope of their power relative to Sheev's. Nor does Yoda know how powerful the Ones are, and Luke even thought that Yoda was just making up a story.
If the quote said that Sheev was the most powerful Force user Luke had ever felt or witnessed, then I'd agree with you - since he personally did not confront the Mortis Anchorites.
But the quote says the Emperor had become the most powerful expression of the Dark Side. And Luke was indeed made aware of the Ones and their eldritch natures. That knowledge may or may not provide ample basis on which to compare the Anchorites with Sheev, but I'm simply saying that for precision's sake, it's not true to declare that the quote is invalid because of Luke's lack of knowledge.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Hell, "The dark side's most powerful expression" doesn't even seem to be referring to the context of history, anyways
That's fair. You don't see me using the quote.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
2. Against UnuThul, against Caedus, oneness against Abeloth, against DE Palpatine, and IIRC he goes oneness during the NJO as well.
Some of these I'll need to revisit to make sure it was actual "Oneness," but back to Live Tweeting.
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[*]Regarding the contents of the Emperor's Vault, the Codex says that Valkorion used it to store artifacts he feared were too powerful and dangerous to use - not that he stored all of those sorts of artifacts there. I'm not sure it provides an ample basis by which to compare them to the Phobis Devices, unless you have more evidence.
[*]On that point, the SWTOR Encyclopedia says that's part of the reason the Dark Temple itself was created by Vitiate - to store dangerous artifacts
[*]The codex on Ragnos says "legend" tells that he beat his pet nightly and warped it with the Force.
[*]Your position on the multiple accounts of the Nathema ritual seems shaky at best. Setting aside the fact that the only evidence that Vitiate mindhaxxed his Sith guests is from Nyriss herself, she might very well indeed have been disingenuous - exaggerating the scope of Vitiate's power to emphasize the need to neutralize him. Nor does Vitiate need to be capable of mindhaxxing 8k Sith Lords against their well in order for Nyriss to betray him.
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Originally posted by The_Tempest
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[*]Regarding the contents of the Emperor's Vault, the Codex says that Valkorion used it to store artifacts he feared were too powerful and dangerous to use - not that he stored all of those sorts of artifacts there. I'm not sure it provides an ample basis by which to compare them to the Phobis Devices, unless you have more evidence.
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[*]Assuming you're taking the quotes about Jerec's omniscience from the Valley of the Jedi at face value, then I'd argue it's conclusive proof that the Valley of the Jedi/Thought Bomb is "infinitely" more impressive than what happened on Nathema, since it only "vastly" increased Vitiate's abilities as a dark side practitioner and afforded him neither immortality or omniscience.
[*]Your assessment of Vitiate slaying the Dark Council members in a flash is disingenuous. This may very well have been a trap - not a demonstration of casual, unprepped power. We don't know how the confrontation would have gone had Vitiate not known about it ahead of time.
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Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well tbf, given that the holocron was ultimately a tool instrumental in his destruction, and given that his power is stated to dwarf that of the Dread Masters who wielded the Phobis devices, there is ample evidence in the lore and narrative to suggest that Vitiate would consider the holocron more dangerous than the phobis devices and would be more concerned with safeguarding it.
Stated by whom?
Originally posted by The_Tempest
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[*]Assuming you're taking the quotes about Jerec's omniscience from the Valley of the Jedi at face value, then I'd argue it's conclusive proof that the Valley of the Jedi/Thought Bomb is "infinitely" more impressive than what happened on Nathema, since it only "vastly" increased Vitiate's abilities as a dark side practitioner and afforded him neither immortality or omniscience.
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[*]The Revan fight analysis section begins on shaky ground.
[*]You claim that "Revan knew he wouldn't ever be able to defeat the Emperor all by himself," but the excerpt you cite as proof from the novel only states that Revan thinks he "probably" wasn't a match for the Emperor alone.
[*](That same excerpt says Revan thinks a pair that are compositely sub-Nyriss and T-friggin'-3 would give him "a real chance of victory."😉
[*]That the guard is able to resist Revan's Force push so well might indicate that they're able to draw on more than just a "fraction" of Vitiate's power, given how well Revan does against the real deal a few minutes later. The novel itself never actually says "fraction," for what it's worth.
[*]The Force wave Vitiate hurls at Revan was a product of him gathering his energies and only throwing them at the last possible instant. That Revan essentially is only knocked off his feet and not damaged to any particular extent says a lot - similar to the point you make about Revan just knocking Vitiate off his feet and not actually damaging him.
[*]So far, this is not a lopsided battle between opponents who are actively charging their attacks.
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Alright, I read through the entire thing. I'll briefly offer my thoughts.
My main issue here is that this blog offered nothing new in terms of feats, accolades, scaling etc. Everyone knew these things already. So I ask, what was the point? This didn't give me any new insight, widen my perceptions or alter my stances at all - I still think he's sub-Plagueis and gets one-shot by RotS Sidious solely on the basis of feats. It's just the same shit I've heard over and over again from those arguing for Valkorion's supremacy. Honestly, this thing was needlessly hyped to end: DarthSkywalker0 even bragged that it would "convince everybody" of Valkorion being the GOAT, "fundamentally change Star Wars debating forever", and even "kill off Sheev wank".
Just to state it, I have nothing personal against either of the creators and consider both Skillz and DarthSkywalker0 my good friends, but honestly, given the way this thing was hyped and the rather arrogant comments made by the latter, this whole movement has just felt like a pretentious pile of dogshit. I was planning to write a counter, but after reading through this thing, it honestly isn't worth my goddamn time. I'll just counter with my own blog.
Originally posted by Azronger
[B]Alright, I read through the entire thing. I'll briefly offer my thoughts.My main issue here is that this blog offered nothing new in terms of feats, accolades, scaling etc. Everyone knew these things already. So I ask, what was the point? This didn't give me any new insight, widen my perceptions or alter my stances at all - I still think he's sub-Plagueis and gets one-shot by RotS Sidious solely on the basis of feats. It's just the same shit I've heard over and over again from those arguing for Valkorion's supremacy. Honestly, this thing was needlessly hyped to end: DarthSkywalker0 even bragged that it would "convince everybody" of Valkorion being the GOAT, "fundamebtally change Star Wars debating forever", and even "kill off Sheev wank".
Az half of those are misquoted... and the rest were stated in jest.