Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Vitiate was just gonna Nathema the galaxy via a ritual, a feat that shows a nigh- unprecidented understanding and knowledge in the Force - one that exceeds, or even at the very bed rock of lowball, match, manipulating Midichlorians in fact.
A ritual! How fantastic! Not applicable in a 1v1.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Plagueis's best feats are also rituals so dismissing rituals and grandscale showings isn't going to end well for Plagueis here.
Plagueis shifting the climate of a planet, shaking the mountains and freezing the oceans wasn't a ritual. It was done with his mere presence.
Valkorion would obviously take lots of rituals and time to devour the galaxy. Plagueis himself, with one "ritual" far shorter and much easier than the other, was deemed such a threat to the Force that a being with twice the power of ROTS Sidious (who is Valkorion+) was spawned to kill him.
Valkorion could consume the galaxy, but Plagueis, with a far less extensive and powerful ritual, spawned a being twice as powerful as Valkorion's superior. If we wanna say Valk wins because of rituals, then the evidence contradicts it.
Anyway, Plagueis has this because he is at least comparable in Force abilities (being considerably more powerful than Gravid/Gean and decently above Tenebrous- as well as being not far off from Sidious) and definitely has the speed to get up close and make a mockery of Valkorion with strength or sabers.
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Plagueis shifting the climate of a planet, shaking the mountains and freezing the oceans wasn't a ritual. It was done with his mere presence.Valkorion would obviously take lots of rituals and time to devour the galaxy. Plagueis himself, with one "ritual" far shorter and much easier than the other, was deemed such a threat to the Force that a being with twice the power of ROTS Sidious (who is Valkorion+) was spawned to kill him.
Valkorion could consume the galaxy, but Plagueis, with a far less extensive and powerful ritual, spawned a being twice as powerful as Valkorion's superior. If we wanna say Valk wins because of rituals, then the evidence contradicts it.
Anyway, Plagueis has this because he is at least comparable in Force abilities (being considerably more powerful than Gravid/Gean and decently above Tenebrous- as well as being not far off from Sidious) and definitely has the speed to get up close and make a mockery of Valkorion with strength or sabers.
You can't compare it even, if it took much less time.
Originally posted by thesithmaster
A ritual! How fantastic! Not applicable in a 1v1.
Still conveys a near unparalleled understanding and mastery in the Force if he was going to consume it entirely.
Any of Plagueis "galactic" feats are far outstripped, leaving us to look at actual combative showings/implied power, something, Plagueis stands absolutely zero shot at beating Valk at.
Originally posted by thesithmaster
Plagueis shifting the climate of a planet, shaking the mountains and freezing the oceans wasn't a ritual. It was done with his mere presence.Valkorion would obviously take lots of rituals and time to devour the galaxy. Plagueis himself, with one "ritual" far shorter and much easier than the other, was deemed such a threat to the Force that a being with twice the power of ROTS Sidious (who is Valkorion+) was spawned to kill him.
Valkorion could consume the galaxy, but Plagueis, with a far less extensive and powerful ritual, spawned a being twice as powerful as Valkorion's superior. If we wanna say Valk wins because of rituals, then the evidence contradicts it.
Anyway, Plagueis has this because he is at least comparable in Force abilities (being considerably more powerful than Gravid/Gean and decently above Tenebrous- as well as being not far off from Sidious) and definitely has the speed to get up close and make a mockery of Valkorion with strength or sabers.
2. See above. Also, destroying the galaxy (and, by extension, the Force) is so hilariously beyond just pissing it off enough to spawn Anakin that I'm honestly amazed you're not trolling here.
3. Rituals are a reflection of one's power, understanding, willpower and overall mastery of the Force. The Valkorion defenders here aren't saying that Valkorion wins by employing rituals in a 1v1 - they're saying he'd win because the scale of the rituals he's powerful enough to perform are far beyond anything Plagueis can even hope to do; and thus Vitiate is more powerful.
4. He's not at all comparable in his Force abilities, lol, and neither is he making a 'mockery' of a being that powerful with as crude a weapon as a lightsaber. Nor will his strength help him much against a being who's blocking lightsabers with waves of his hand.
Originally posted by slayne
1. Same goes for Vitiate creating an Anakin-type being with the sole existential purpose of taking him down, per Revan -- a feat which took a multi-month ritual for Plagueis at his prime as well as a Sidious who was rapidly approaching him in power to accomplish; nevermind the aid of the Force itself. I mean, it's unfair to Plagueis to even compare their feats lol. (Also how the hell is RotS Sidious a Valkorion+ being?)2. See above. Also, destroying the galaxy (and, by extension, the Force) is so hilariously beyond just pissing it off enough to spawn Anakin that I'm honestly amazed you're not trolling here.
3. Rituals are a reflection of one's power, understanding, willpower and overall mastery of the Force. The Valkorion defenders here aren't saying that Valkorion wins by employing rituals in a 1v1 - they're saying he'd win because the scale of the rituals he's powerful enough to perform are far beyond anything Plagueis can even hope to do; and thus Vitiate is more powerful.
4. He's not at all comparable in his Force abilities, lol, and neither is he making a 'mockery' of a being that powerful with as crude a weapon as a lightsaber. Nor will his strength help him much against a being who's blocking lightsabers with waves of his hand.
Literally all that is said is that a Jedi would defeat Vitiate one day. Lol, at that being even remotely compared to Anakin.
Even if you do wish to take this "non-existent" argument literally, no, Vitiate required more than 12 centuries for a person to even challenge him and he had to be weakened for the person to even come close to touching him, whereas Plagueis and Sidious required only months to create a person who had potential shitting on either of their's. So yeah, any way you look, Plagueis stomps on Vitiate in this category.
Not to mention, there is a clear link between Plagueis and Sidious attempting to dominate the force in its entirety itself, succeeding and shifting the force itself throughout the galaxy, turning the entire galaxy into a DS Nexus, and the "force" itself, churning out a being who was literally a demigod of sorts, to bring balance to the force. There is absolutely nothing that indicates the HoT fulfilling any of these criteria, so stop peddling this argument from now on.
2. Another heavily flawed argument.
Vitiate required literally "centuries" of preparation for him to even "begin" the ritual, and then he would require simultaneous deaths of billions to accomplish.
Yeah, that's a low showing. Nothing even remotely comparable to any of Plagueis's given him requiring "centuries" of preparation to even attempt it, or that he would do it "eventually"( he evidently failed at even this, lol). Best of all, Valkorion's biggest showing of power is draining Ziost.
3. The scale of what Plagueis attempted and actually pulled off, was "infinitely" above the scale of what Valkorion did, because what he and Sidious did in just "months" of meditation spanned and affected the entire "galaxy".
Whereas Vitiate needs centuries to even move towards accomplishing something like that, absolutely none of his rituals have actually "accomplished" anything even infinitesimally close to that.
4. Yeah, he is not comparable. He is just better, and it is not even close. I know that it is a bitter pill to swallow, but it is so.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
imagine if vitiate successfully set off his big ritual and it just didn't work.
Well, per the Revan novel, Scrouges visions were actual possible futures and not just random visions. The ritual was absolutely within Vitiate capabilities to pull it off, had the Champion of Light not put an end to his plans.
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
This whole argument is twisted so pathetically out of proportion:
1. The Hot is not an "Anakin like being", rotflmao. I like this attempt to copy off what Plagueis and Sidious did, but it is a terrible excuse of an argument. There was no "prophecy" regarding a "Chosen One" of the Jedi in "history" who would completely "bring" balance to the force, who would have the highest potential of anyone ever in Star Wars history, who would literally have a potential so high, he could control the "deities of the force" itself, when at maximum power.Literally all that is said is that a Jedi would defeat Vitiate one day. Lol, at that being even remotely compared to Anakin.
Even if you do wish to take this "non-existent" argument literally, no, Vitiate required more than 12 centuries for a person to even challenge him and he had to be weakened for the person to even come close to touching him, whereas Plagueis and Sidious required only months to create a person who had potential shitting on either of their's. So yeah, any way you look, Plagueis stomps on Vitiate in this category.
Not to mention, there is a clear link between Plagueis and Sidious attempting to dominate the force in its entirety itself, succeeding and shifting the force itself throughout the galaxy, turning the entire galaxy into a DS Nexus, and the "force" itself, churning out a being who was literally a demigod of sorts, to bring balance to the force. There is absolutely nothing that indicates the HoT fulfilling any of these criteria, so stop peddling this argument from now on.
2. Another heavily flawed argument.
Vitiate required literally "centuries" of preparation for him to even "begin" the ritual, and then he would require simultaneous deaths of billions to accomplish.
Yeah, that's a low showing. Nothing even remotely comparable to any of Plagueis's given him requiring "centuries" of preparation to even attempt it, or that he would do it "eventually"( he evidently failed at even this, lol). Best of all, Valkorion's biggest showing of power is draining Ziost.
3. The scale of what Plagueis attempted and actually pulled off, was "infinitely" above the scale of what Valkorion did, because what he and Sidious did in just "months" of meditation spanned and affected the entire "galaxy".
Whereas Vitiate needs centuries to even move towards accomplishing something like that, absolutely none of his rituals have actually "accomplished" anything even infinitesimally close to that.
4. Yeah, he is not comparable. He is just better, and it is not even close. I know that it is a bitter pill to swallow, but it is so.
No, lol. The Force, per Revan (and Scourge) would literally spawn a "champion of the Light" whose sole existential purpose was to take him down. It's entirely irrelevant if there was a prophecy concerning it, or if its Force potential was unprecedented because it would still be a child spawned by the Force to combat Vitiate nonetheless - in other words, a being like Anakin. 👆
Also, no; the prophecy stated that the Force strove for balance and thus it would spawn a champion of the light to defeat him, not that "a Jedi would one day kill him." I really don't know what you're getting at here, rofl. Anyway, the HoT's potential still has yet to be established, so I'm not even sure why you're bringing this up in the first place.
Even if you do wish to take this "non-existent" argument literally, no, Vitiate required more than 12 centuries for a person to even challenge him and he had to be weakened for the person to even come close to touching him, whereas Plagueis and Sidious required only months to create a person who had potential shitting on either of their's. So yeah, any way you look, Plagueis stomps on Vitiate in this category.
Not to mention, there is a clear link between Plagueis and Sidious attempting to dominate the force in its entirety itself, succeeding and shifting the force itself throughout the galaxy, turning the entire galaxy into a DS Nexus, and the "force" itself, churning out a being who was literally a demigod of sorts, to bring balance to the force. There is absolutely nothing that indicates the HoT fulfilling any of these criteria, so stop peddling this argument from now on.
Aside from this, yes, the HoT fits all of the criteria you provided.
1. Vitiate affects the balance of the Force so greatly in the favor of the dark side that it needed to spawn a "champion of the light" to take him down, indicating that the magnitude of his simple existance was akin to the magnitude of Plagueis' and Sidious' ritual.
2. Scourge, when meeting the HoT on Quesh, immediately recognizes him as the champion of the Force destined to bring down Vitiate that Revan described. And the best part is? The Force itself showed him the vision that allowed him to identify the HoT as such a being.
3. The HoT, later known as the Outlander, fulfills the destiny described by Revan and Scourge and kills Vitiate, thereby bringing true balance to the Force.
Vitiate required literally "centuries" of preparation for him to even "begin" the ritual, and then he would require simultaneous deaths of billions to accomplish. Yeah, that's a low showing. Nothing even remotely comparable to any of Plagueis's given him requiring "centuries" of preparation to even attempt it, or that he would do it "eventually"( he evidently failed at even this, lol). Best of all, Valkorion's biggest showing of power is draining Ziost.
Hell, Vitiate even having the Force mastery, power, and overall potential to pull off that ritual already puts him miles above Plagueis in anything concerning the Force whatsoever.
3. The scale of what Plagueis attempted and actually pulled off, was "infinitely" above the scale of what Valkorion did, because what he and Sidious did in just "months" of meditation spanned and affected the entire "galaxy". Whereas Vitiate needs centuries to even move towards accomplishing something like that, absolutely none of his rituals have actually "accomplished" anything even infinitesimally close to that.
4. Yeah, he is not comparable. He is just better, and it is not even close. I know that it is a bitter pill to swallow, but it is so.
Spoiler:
Have you ever debated SW on another forum before? You remind me strongly of a certain PT supporter over on Comic Vine.
Also Hasch why the **** did you make this so hard to respond to
slayne
No, lol. The Force, per Revan (and Scourge) would literally spawn a "champion of the Light" whose sole existential purpose was to take him down. It's entirely irrelevant if there was a prophecy concerning it, or if its Force potential was unprecedented because it would still be a child spawned by the Force to combat Vitiate nonetheless - in other words, a being like Anakin. thumb upAlso, no; the prophecy stated that the Force strove for balance and thus it would spawn a champion of the light to defeat him, not that "a Jedi would one day kill him." I really don't know what you're getting at here, rofl. Anyway, the HoT's potential still has yet to be established, so I'm not even sure why you're bringing this up in the first place.
Citation needed.
Because to even remotely insinuate that HoT/Outlander is in the same ballpark as the Chosen One as a messianic figure is dishonest as hell.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Citation needed.Because to even remotely insinuate that HoT/Outlander is in the same ballpark as the Chosen One as a messianic figure is dishonest as hell.
The Force always strives for balance. The Emperor is an agent of darkness and destruction. It is inevitable that a champion of the light will one day rise to oppose him.--Revan, Revan