Rebels Ahsoka vs SoD Maul

Started by Rockydonovang5 pages

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Complete and unsubstantiated speculation as usual. You have a habit of making things up.
[QUOTE=16326476]Originally posted by Darth Thor
The last part of the Dun Moch was Maul saying to Ahsoka "One last attempt at glory to impress a master who had not further use for you" to which Ahsoka replied "That's no True!"

Actually fair enough, I misremembered the order of events here.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
So clearly as far as Maul knew he was winning the Dun Moch exchange and clearly enjoying toying with a sub-par opponent.

Yeah, none of this substantiates your assertion that Maul wouldn't be putting his strength into a direct overhead strike intended to cleave Ahsoka in two which leaves your claim:
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Complete and unsubstantiated speculation as usual.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Maul is clearly stronger than ROTS Ahsoka Lol. Get over it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Keep it up bro 👆

(The first part of my response was on the last page)

Originally posted by Kurk
[B]You'll have to forgive my foggy memory on that...

What success of Kenobi physically are you referring to? I'm inclined to agree that Maul's strength has never given him any sort of real advantage in his fights against Obi-Wan.


Take a gander:

-> Disorientates Maul for several seconds
https://youtu.be/aE_CVWMWK74?t=1m56s

-> Disorientates Maul again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74

-> Incaps Maul for several seconds:
https://youtu.be/DlJiphrbLyg?t=1m8s

Originally posted by Kurk
Oh come on. You said yourself how augmentation over-rides fatigue.

I said it can override Physical degradement, not Physical injury
Originally posted by Kurk
I only remember him kicking down Savage with a flying kick from a height.

He landed grounded kicks too. All of his kicks affected Oppress though.
Originally posted by Kurk
If this was legends, I would push the point, but unfortunately I'm having trouble finding much on Maul's physicals in canon. I will concede on this point.

Making this legends wouldn't do you any favors. Maul has no strength feats on par with Kenobi catching Grevious's ship denting punch and then bending Greviou's arm like a cheap spoon. Maul is only assumed to be stronger because of impressive crap he did pre-prime being more impressive than what Kenobi did pre-prime. The argument being that Kenobi's better results physically are a result of superior skill than strength.
Originally posted by Kurk
Touche, but it's likewise with Tano.

No, because Tano has sent Maul flailing backwards by virtue of her strength. Hence there's an argument to be made for Ahsoka causing Maul problems with her strength.

Originally posted by Kurk
At the power difference between someone like Sidious and Maul yes it means sh1t. But because Tano and Maul are on the same tier, the smaller factors add up.

It's still negligible, especially considering we've seen Ahsoka physically overpower Maul.
Originally posted by Kurk
I will say that Maul is not Savage, meaning he's not going to overpower anyone (in canon at least). However, he has demonstrated an affinity for incorporating martial arts into his move-sets and has made use of his strength specifically there. Go back to TPM.

That Maul knows martial arts doesn't prove he's skilled enough to effectively use these martial arts on Ahsoka who also can use martial arts.
Originally posted by Kurk
Look at his first TCW fight with Kenobi.

A beat up Kenobi taking a second to get up from Maul landing three successive hits on him doesn't really help your argument much tbh:
https://youtu.be/DlJiphrbLyg?t=1m16s
Originally posted by Kurk
He managed to land a kick on Sidious.

When Sidious wasn't fighting at full speed, yea.
Originally posted by Kurk
Ahsoka is going to have to put up with that.

And you've yet to provide evidence indicating she couldn't "put up with that", which renders your conclusion that Maul could take the w via his supposed physical superiority, dubious. 😬

Maul shit stomped Obi-Wan almost every time in TCW, apart from duel blades Ataru rage amp Kenobi. Even in that case Maul still wrecked him with the force.

Originally posted by godemperortrump
[B]Maul shit stomped Obi-Wan

TCW, gloss edition?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Actually fair enough, I misremembered the order of events here.

Well check your facts then before making up BS counters to someone whose giving you actual evidence from the very source you're using to support your own agenda.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yeah, none of this substantiates your assertion that Maul wouldn't be putting his strength into a direct overhead strike intended to cleave Ahsoka in two which leaves your claim:

It's for you to prove he was given all the evidence I've presented against your own speculation based on things that don't even happen. a Lightsaber only needs to touch Ahsoka's head to kill her, and as far as Maul's concerned she's a very sub-par opponent to him. Hardly someone he needs all his strength to defeat Lol.

Ahsoka is canonically stated to have used her full strength. There's nothing anywhere suggesting Maul was doing the same.

You're beyond reaching now.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Keep it up bro 👆

IOW you don't like the facts 👆

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You lied to me, meanie!

Please forgive me Thor 🙁

Originally posted by Darth Thor You
It's for you to prove he was given all the evidence I've presented against your own speculation based on things that don't even happen. a Lightsaber only needs to touch Ahsoka's head to kill her, and as far as Maul's concerned she's a very sub-par opponent to him. Hardly someone he needs all his strength to defeat Lol.

Yea, that's not how the burden of proof works. In order for me to disprove something, you have to first prove it.
Read up:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Ahsoka is canonically stated to have used her full strength. There's nothing anywhere suggesting Maul was doing the same.

Except that force users utilize their strength in bladelocks, that's how bladelocks work.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
IOW you don't like the facts 👆

That's... not relevant to what a strawman is. 😬

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yea, Ahsoka had pissed Maul off at this point so nah, Maul was trying here.

Thor already corrected you here.


Yea, that's not remotely similar to what Ahsoka did to Maul or what Anakin has done to Vader sustained bouts of strength.

That entire fight was a sustained bout of strength by Dooku; Anakin never over-powered him once there.


Since it's the only relevant showing here, you have no way of calling this an anomaly

It's not an anomaly nor is it consistent in that case. Fights are independent of each other. What happens in one does not determine what will happen in another. Repetition is the only real way to definitively place a combatant above another, and being that this is their only fight, using Ahsoka's one or two instances where she overpowers Maul as an indication of superior strength would be the equivalent of saying Dooku is stronger than Anakin using only the one fight from earlier.


No, what I mean is that at the age Maul is at as of Rebels, his 40's/50's, there's no precedent for characters physically degradement exceeding their augmentation. Dooku shows that even at 70, you can still be physically superior to your 20 year old self.

To be fair, we can't assume Dooku is more physically capable than his younger self because that quote is legends. Physical augmentation in as it relates to age is pretty untouched in canon from what I can tell.


And you have failed to provide any evidence for Maul's physical degradement exceeding his force growth.

You want one? Maul needing a cane during this era. If we want to dwell into legends, Stover's ROTS novel states how astonished Sidious was when he tried to run without the aid of the force. Obviously this is not a handicap when fighting Yoda because he too shares the same problem, canceling out any sort of disadvantage.

Now when you compare Maul and Tano, two force users who are on a similar tier (we can agree on at least), the latter who does not have any physical decrepitudes, it would be reasonable to assume that Maul has to channel significantly more of his energy into simply sustaining his degrading body during combat than Ahsoka.

It's not a residual amount of energy being used either, because even someone as powerful as RotJ Sidious couldn't passively sustain himself in-definitively as shown by the use of a cane throughout the films (the one exception being when fighting Luke).

🙄
Being more powerful wouldn't improve abilities that are dependent on augmenting yourself with the force?

I'm too stupid to understand your point. Malanchor isn't a nexus in canon, so it's not aiding him.

You're assuming the reserves would decrease when more powerful force users have larger force reserves, hence this formula you're trying to use hinges on unsubstantiated assumption. 🙁

That assumption here is that Maul and Ahsoka on on relatively similar force tiers when it comes to their overall powers, reserves, strength, speed, etc. While I cannot speculate how long it would take for someone like Sidious to expend their reserves on augmentation, we can speculate that Rebels Maul is using more of his energy on augmentation than a physically fit Ahsoka who isn't suffering from the corrupting nature of the dark-side.


Then how Vader can perform vs Ahsoka is irrelevant to how Maul would perform against Ahsoka. 👆
Next.

It shows how quickly Ahsoka tired from the fight. She's not on Vader's tier so who's tier is she on?


Pushing back a strike isn't the same as overpowering someone in a sustained bladelock

You know very-well that one of those was a clear-cut blade-lock when Tano pushed back even from a disadvantaged spot.


Right, because Vader is strong enough to tire Ahsoka out with his blows. Maul isn't as strong as Vade which means this comparison you're trying to draw will lead you nowhere.
I don't deny it.

So we agree that both Maul and Ahsoka aren't as strong as Vader. So neither is going to be over-powering the other consistently, right?

You can't claim this is inconsistent when there's nothing for it to be inconsistent against.

already answered.

Probably Maul, but it could go either way

Goddamn... loving the new avi Rebel95

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Goddamn... loving the new avi Rebel95

Thanks 😄

I knew this thread was going to be abortion-tier, and Kurk seems done a spectacular job in proving me right. Good job.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Goddamn... loving the new avi Rebel95

👆

Originally posted by |King Joker|
I knew this thread was going to be abortion-tier, and Kurk seems done a spectacular job in proving me right. Good job.

Anyone who puts Ahsoka below Maul is cancer, amirite? 🙂

To be honest Rocky's first line here began the cancer:

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Ahsoka is authoritatively ahead of, and has stalemated a canonically superior version of Maul on a DS Nexus.

Naturally, Thor's definition of cancer are three claims I've provided uncontradicted evidence for.

Originally posted by Kurk
Thor already corrected you here.

He corrected me on a misremembering of evidence that still leaves us with your and thor's claim as unsubstantiated. Regardless you can ignore that baldelock if you like, it isn't remotely essential to my argument.
Originally posted by Kurk
That entire fight was a sustained bout of strength by Dooku; Anakin never over-powered him once there.

No, it wasn't a bout of strength, it was a bout of skill. Since Dooku is more skilled than Anakin at that point, he was able to repeatedly use superior skill to clown him.
Originally posted by Kurk
It's not an anomaly nor is it consistent in that case. Fights are independent of each other. What happens in one does not determine what will happen in another. Repetition is the only real way to definitively place a combatant above another

Sorry Kurk, but we base conclusions of the evidence we receive, not of the evidence you think we should receive. And Kurk, if your stance here is we don't have enough information, then why are you trying to draw a conclusion? If your stance is you don't know, then you shouldn't be arguing anything here.
Originally posted by Kurk
, and being that this is their only fight, using Ahsoka's one or two instances where she overpowers Maul as an indication of superior strength would be the equivalent of saying Dooku is stronger than Anakin using only the one fight from earlier.

A false equivalency. Not only has Dooku never been able to overpower Anakinin the manner Ahsoka overpowered Maul, but unlike with maul and Ahsoka, we have multiple examples of Anakin directly overpowering Dooku in sustained bouts of strength.
Originally posted by Kurk
To be fair, we can't assume Dooku is more physically capable than his younger self because that quote is legends. Physical augmentation in as it relates to age is pretty untouched in canon from what I can tell.

If you want to keep this exclusive to canon, fair enough. However we can simply refer to Rebels Maul growing as a duelist despite his natural physical degradement.
Originally posted by Kurk
You want one? Maul needing a cane during this era.

Yes, when he wasn't fighting and was not making use of the superior force augmentation his greater power would grant him. 😬
Originally posted by Kurk
If we want to dwell into legends, Stover's ROTS novel states how astonished Sidious was when he tried to run without the aid of the force. Obviously this is not a handicap when fighting Yoda because he too shares the same problem, canceling out any sort of disadvantage.

Why is what Sidious can do without the force relevant to his combative abilities with the force? 😕
Originally posted by Kurk
Now when you compare Maul and Tano, two force users who are on a similar tier (we can agree on at least), the latter who does not have any physical decrepitudes, it would be reasonable to assume that Maul has to channel significantly more of his energy into simply sustaining his degrading body during combat than Ahsoka.

Which would make Ahsoka being stronger than Rebels Maul logical. Now why is this relevant to SOD Maul who isn't as powerful as either? 😬
Originally posted by Kurk
It's not a residual amount of energy being used either, because even someone as powerful as RotJ Sidious couldn't passively sustain himself in-definitively as shown by the use of a cane throughout the films (the one exception being when fighting Luke).

You act as if ROTS Sidious could fight forever. No force user has infinite stamina, however a more powerful force user has bigger force reserves to draw on and hence will be able to fight longer.
Originally posted by Kurk
I'm too stupid to understand your point. Malanchor isn't a nexus in canon, so it's not aiding him.

Says who? I have an authorial statement from Henry Gilroy implying otherwise
Originally posted by Kurk
That assumption here is that Maul and Ahsoka on on relatively similar force tiers

Not SOD Maul who's feats are outclassed by an inferior version of Vader to the one who both Maul and Ahsoka share a degree of near parity to.
Originally posted by Kurk
when it comes to their overall powers, reserves, strength, speed, etc. While I cannot speculate how long it would take for someone like Sidious to expend their reserves on augmentation, we can speculate that Rebels Maul is using more of his energy on augmentation than a physically fit Ahsoka who isn't suffering from the corrupting nature of the dark-side.

Now explain why this means SOD Maul, who doesn't have the force reserves Rebels Maul has would be able to do better? In fact, given that Ahsoka and SOD Maul are of similar age, I'd think Ahsoka being a force user who Vader wouldn't bother to directly tk until she had her defenses down, on a nexus, would be able to do just fine against Maul considering her greater power.
Originally posted by Kurk
It shows how quickly Ahsoka tired from the fight. She's not on Vader's tier so who's tier is she on?

Tiring after more than a minuite of fighting isn't quickly tiring bro. And I'm not seeing why she isn't on Vader's tier when she can contend with him in unfavorable circumstances for more than minute before the fight is prematurely ended. On the other hand, given LOTS Vader's feats sh!t on SOD Maul's, I wonder why you think Maul would be doing as ell as Ahsoka did.
Originally posted by Kurk
You know very-well that one of those was a clear-cut blade-lock when Tano pushed back even from a disadvantaged spot.

Brief bladelocks aren't solid indications of strength, a sustained bout, where both opponents are trying to physically overpower the other, are.
Originally posted by Kurk
So we agree that both Maul and Ahsoka aren't as strong as Vader. So neither is going to be over-powering the other consistently, right?

That both are sub-Vader doesn't make the two equal. Ahsoka has physically overpowered a more powerful version of Maul and can be assumed to wield considerably more power than SOD Maul given her closeness with a considerably more powerful force user in Vader.

What's the argument for Maul here again?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
He corrected me on a misremembering of evidence that still leaves us with your and thor's claim as unsubstantiated. Regardless you can ignore that baldelock if you like, it isn't remotely essential to my argument.

No, it wasn't a bout of strength, it was a bout of skill. Since Dooku is more skilled than Anakin at that point, he was able to repeatedly use superior skill to clown him.

Sorry Kurk, but we base conclusions of the evidence we receive, not of the evidence you think we should receive. And Kurk, if your stance here is we don't have enough information, then why are you trying to draw a conclusion? If your stance is you don't know, then you shouldn't be arguing anything here.

A false equivalency. Not only has Dooku never been able to overpower Anakinin the manner Ahsoka overpowered Maul, but unlike with maul and Ahsoka, we have multiple examples of Anakin directly overpowering Dooku in sustained bouts of strength.

If you want to keep this exclusive to canon, fair enough. However we can simply refer to Rebels Maul growing as a duelist despite his natural physical degradement.

Yes, when he wasn't fighting and was not making use of the superior force augmentation his greater power would grant him. 😬

Why is what Sidious can do without the force relevant to his combative abilities with the force? 😕

Which would make Ahsoka being stronger than Rebels Maul logical. Now why is this relevant to SOD Maul who isn't as powerful as either? 😬

You act as if ROTS Sidious could fight forever. No force user has infinite stamina, however a more powerful force user has bigger force reserves to draw on and hence will be able to fight longer.

Says who? I have an authorial statement from Henry Gilroy implying otherwise

Not SOD Maul who's feats are outclassed by an inferior version of Vader to the one who both Maul and Ahsoka share a degree of near parity to.

Now explain why this means SOD Maul, who doesn't have the force reserves Rebels Maul has would be able to do better? In fact, given that Ahsoka and SOD Maul are of similar age, I'd think Ahsoka being a force user who Vader wouldn't bother to directly tk until she had her defenses down, on a nexus, would be able to do just fine against Maul considering her greater power.

Tiring after more than a minuite of fighting isn't quickly tiring bro. And I'm not seeing why she isn't on Vader's tier when she can contend with him in unfavorable circumstances for more than minute before the fight is prematurely ended. On the other hand, given LOTS Vader's feats sh!t on SOD Maul's, I wonder why you think Maul would be doing as ell as Ahsoka did.

Brief bladelocks aren't solid indications of strength, a sustained bout, where both opponents are trying to physically overpower the other, are.

That both are sub-Vader doesn't make the two equal. Ahsoka has physically overpowered a more powerful version of Maul and can be assumed to wield considerably more power than SOD Maul given her closeness with a considerably more powerful force user in Vader.

What's the argument for Maul here again?

Alright, I can nitpick the details here but overall you've effectively supported the idea that SoD Maul doesn't have the force capacity to win an extended fight with Ahsoka. You have my fodder concession.

Originally posted by Kurk
Alright, I can nitpick the details here but overall you've effectively supported the idea that SoD Maul doesn't have the force capacity to win an extended fight with Ahsoka. You have my fodder concession.

Good discussion bro 👆

Ashoka was going up against a distracted Vader who at best was trying 50%

Originally posted by gideongarner01
Ashoka was going up against a distracted Vader who at best was trying 50%

Vader was only distracted in a single moment of the fight. Vader was trying to kill her. Dave said that Ashoka takes second place in the people that Vader wants dead the most. Second only to Obi-Wan.