Gotta love how this guy says Sauron's entire military is 200k and tries to act like some kind of authoritah
And wtf am I reading? Drive Mordor crazy? Ahahahahaha, oh jesus that's as golden as the time on (the now dead and irrelevant) FactPile when someone suggested using biological warfare against the Tyranids
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
OP has given the timelines of this thread. Stick to them please. Anything after the destruction of the ring of power is outside this thread.
You so realise that First Age elves and Numenorean Empire are well before the War of the Ring, right?
The again, you are mentally retarded so.... 👆
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Am talking about the second age war. Sauron jad more numbers that he did in the third.
But I'm not talking about the 2nd Age at all! You brought that up, not me.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
And once more! 200k it is! Because those are numbers given by the LoTR director! They are valid. If the books would have given different numbers then i could disregard Jacksons numbers. But since your numbers are not proven by any text nor website, then the only numbers to stick to are Jackson's.
The official numbers are Tolkien's, not Jackson's. Jackson only DEPICTED 200K He never said that that was the entire force. (I just watched the commentary on my Special Edition.)
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No matter how much research is that, you will never have more info than the net. The net seems to agree on 200k. So 200k it is for Sauron.
I disagree. Provide more proof than what I said above yourself, and not some rando's word.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Lets not argue this point. Evidence points to 200k. Am not gonna give you more than that.
I can force the OP to change that if I was so inclined to cheat, Like I said, you don't get to decide your opponents numbers. Thats not fair at all. Not to mention the officiality of your source is dubious without context, which as I said, Jackson references only what he showed, not the entire force. The Orc lines were shown to stretch back beyond human sight.
That is far more than 200K. And that was only one of the two hosts of Mordor during the LOTR trilogy. This does not include all the other armies either, like Isengard, Angmar, Moria, Rhun, Khand, and Haraad.
But fine, lets just say you are right here Josh. That 200K figure? That ONLY covers the Orcs. What about the other creatures in Mordor's forces? Nevermind Sauron's other armies I mentioned. 200K Mordor Orcs is still greater than any single army in ASOIAF.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Ik. But the excuse isnt valid. 200k werent said just to reduce cost of production...that makes NO sense. Jacksonncould have said 50Million and that wouldnt change much in the cost. The excuse isnt valid.200k is the official number. No more than that.
200K orcs. There are other creatures in the Mordor Forces. not to mention the other armies under Sauron's Dominion.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
But I'm not talking about the 2nd Age at all! You brought that up, not me.The official numbers are Tolkien's, not Jackson's. Jackson only DEPICTED 200K He never said that that was the entire force. (I just watched the commentary on my Special Edition.)
I disagree. Provide more proof than what I said above yourself, and not some rando's word.
I can force the OP to change that if I was so inclined to cheat, Like I said, you don't get to decide your opponents numbers. Thats not fair at all. Not to mention the officiality of your source is dubious without context, which as I said, Jackson references only what he showed, not the entire force. The Orc lines were shown to stretch back beyond human sight.
That is far more than 200K. And that was only one of the two hosts of Mordor during the LOTR trilogy. This does not include all the other armies either, like Isengard, Angmar, Moria, Rhun, Khand, and Haraad.
But fine, lets just say you are right here Josh. That 200K figure? That ONLY covers the Orcs. What about the other creatures in Mordor's forces? Nevermind Sauron's other armies I mentioned. 200K Mordor Orcs is still greater than any single army in ASOIAF.
200K orcs. There are other creatures in the Mordor Forces. not to mention the other armies under Sauron's Dominion.
Okay as i said before and I maintain.
The only numbers we ever got from Sauron's troops were 200K.
Jackson said he believe Sauron should have 200K! He was the Director of the film! His job is to direct and make sure that the Books are followed as closely as possible.
Those are the ONLY numbers we have.
That is the best evidence so far. As i said, many sites and webpages accept this numbers. Why shouldn't this thread do the same?
It is safer to bet on the Numbers given by the Director than to base it on speculations and guesses.
I won't accept Sauron having more than 200K orcs, simply because there is no evidence of such.
And your map doesn't really show more than 200K. I can't see your point by showing those pictures of the orcs.
[/URL][/IMG]
This is a picture of Daenery's Unsullied Army. They don't exceed 10 000 men. Look at that panorama! They are covering a lot. Now multiply those numbers by 20! (You get 200k). You get a similar view of yours. So, that is non reliable evidence.
[/URL][/IMG]
Above you have the Lannister Army attacking Highgarden. They are about 5K. Multiply that by 40 and you get the same numbers as Sauron's troops. Enough to cover the entire horizon from the Lady of Thorn's Perspective.
Again using those pictures isn't reliable.
Dark lets not make of this an argument. Lets follow the most reliable evidence here, and that is the Director's opinion. He based his movie on the books. 200K is Sauron's Army.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
Gotta love how this guy says Sauron's entire military is 200k and tries to act like some kind of authoritahAnd wtf am I reading? Drive Mordor crazy? Ahahahahaha, oh jesus that's as golden as the time on (the now dead and irrelevant) FactPile when someone suggested using biological warfare against the Tyranids
Originally posted by StealthRanger
You so realise that First Age elves and Numenorean Empire are well before the War of the Ring, right?The again, you are mentally retarded so.... 👆
The most pathetic thing you can do in a discussion is mock others point of view.
PLEASE PEOPLE. LET'S RESPECT OTHERS OPINION. MAKING FUN AND MOCKING OTHERS ARGUMENTS WONT STRENGHTEN OR PROVE YOUR POINTS. LETS ACT MATURELY PLEASE.
200K is Saurons army simply because the director said that. Am not being an Authoritarian. Am pointing the facts.
There is no evidence in the books to contradict Jackson's opinion. Sorry, but that means we got to stick to the most relevant information and that is what the Director of LOTR said.
Any moderator and impartial person would agree on this with me.
The Director has no reason or benefit in faking or altering the numbers. Lets remember that the Director tries to make his movie as closely related as possible to the books.
Good movies are those which stick closely to the books facts. I doubt Jackson would have guessed that number when he said it. Or are you saying Jackson just directed the film without any knowledge of the Books?
Also you realize that by denying 200K troops for Sauron you are actually denying the Director opinion and words!?
That would mean that you are not taking the movies as canon material! Which goes directly against the rules stated by the OP!!!! The OP stated that both book and movie material were CANON. Therefore if the books fail to give a number to Sauron's troops but the Movies do! The Movie's material and evidence is CANON.
THEREFORE! Jackson numbers are CANON.
If you decide that Sauron has more that 200K. That means you'd be going against this THREAD'S rules! OP can verify this (Dark)
**When i use caps is to highlight a text. It's easier than to use the Bold. Don't misinterpret it as if am being authoritarian or abusive. Please lets be mature and don't take it personal.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay as i said before and I maintain.The only numbers we ever got from Sauron's troops were 200K.
Jackson said he believe Sauron should have 200K! He was the Director of the film! His job is to direct and make sure that the Books are followed as closely as possible.
Those are the ONLY numbers we have.
That is the best evidence so far. As i said, many sites and webpages accept this numbers. Why shouldn't this thread do the same?
It is safer to bet on the Numbers given by the Director than to base it on speculations and guesses.
I won't accept Sauron having more than 200K orcs, simply because there is no evidence of such.
And your map doesn't really show more than 200K. I can't see your point by showing those pictures of the orcs.
[/URL][/IMG]
This is a picture of Daenery's Unsullied Army. They don't exceed 10 000 men. Look at that panorama! They are covering a lot. Now multiply those numbers by 20! (You get 200k). You get a similar view of yours. So, that is non reliable evidence.
[/URL][/IMG]
Above you have the Lannister Army attacking Highgarden. They are about 5K. Multiply that by 40 and you get the same numbers as Sauron's troops. Enough to cover the entire horizon from the Lady of Thorn's Perspective.
Again using those pictures isn't reliable.
[B]Dark lets not make of this an argument. Lets follow the most reliable evidence here, and that is the Director's opinion. He based his movie on the books. 200K is Sauron's Army.
[/B]
No, I'm putting my foot down on this. The Director's opinion is no greater than yours or mine. I am Letting you have the 200K but ONLY for the Orcs and even then thats ONLY the 2nd host. The 1st Host led by the Witch King and Gothmog out of Minas Morgul is an entirely separate force, then there's Sauron's 6 other forces. Nor does it cover the Elves and realms of men, hobbits the Eagles, the Dwarves, or any of the other forces of Good. And that is because you are stalling the thread arguing a point nobody else agrees with. Besides, numbers alone are not enough. Move on.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Largely irrelevant tripe and bogus
As Dark said, 200K was just one of Sauron's orc armies alone, not factoring in other forces like Easterlings, Haradrim, Corsairs of Umbar, Trolls, etc
Sauron had plenty more just like that and worse back at home, that the Free Peoples admitted they had no chance at all against (say, didn't one part of the special features in ROTK say Sauron had 600,000 troops at Minas Tirith?)
Besides, like I and others have said, numbers are more or less irrelevant when your opponents have many characters who can do shit like destroy mountains, shift islands magically, destroy fortresses magically
No, I'm mocking you because your opinions are founded in little more than just that, with zero substance at all. And no "it's muh opinion" isn't some silver bullet point for making your argument valid
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Not mental communicatiom. Greenseeing and Mental communication isnt the same.Sauron will just hear voices and dont know who is talking to him. Greenseeing is like an invisible person talking. Isnt like Bran gets literaly in his head.
If all he's doing is whispering to him, I'm not exactly sure what you think that will accomplish. Sauron has a will of iron, capable of dominating any other person active in the Third Age, random voices isn't going to make him go nuts if that's what you think.
Originally posted by FinalAnswer
If all he's doing is whispering to him, I'm not exactly sure what you think that will accomplish. Sauron has a will of iron, capable of dominating any other person active in the Third Age, random voices isn't going to make him go nuts if that's what you think.
If you are in your castle and all of a sudden you begin hearing whispers what would you do?
No matter who, if you begin hearing whispers from the air you'd think you are going crazy. Or maybe that God is speaking to you.
Even Sauron would be thinking himself crazy.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
If you are in your castle and all of a sudden you begin hearing whispers what would you do?
I don't know, I'm not an immortal cosmic angel that's existed since the dawn of time and sang in God's choir of creation. People deal with that in real life, never mind a supernaturally powerful spirit, whispering to Sauron would be an annoyance, at best.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
If you are in your castle and all of a sudden you begin hearing whispers what would you do?No matter who, if you begin hearing whispers from the air you'd think you are going crazy. Or maybe that God is speaking to you.
Even Sauron would be thinking himself crazy.
Allow me to help you understand. You are looking at Sauron specifically as if he were a modern human being from our own Earth. He is not.
Sauron (originally Mairon, the servant of Aule the Smith, Valar of the Forge) is a Maiar. What we would equate to an Angel. He has lived even longer than the planet Arda, as he was one of the many Ainur who sung the songs of creation. He is specifically older, and more knowlegable than the Weirwoods that give the Greenseers, including Bran, their power.
We are talking about a spirit capable of reshaping the lands of the world, as that was part of the Maiar's job, as much as that of the Valar.
I mean, Bran is no Sheogorath, and the only way the Maiar went mad, was when they listened to Melkor/Morgoth, and followed his will instead of Eru's. And this is true for any Maiar. Saruman, another maiar, and an Iistari only went mad because of Sauron's mental f**kery through the Palantir. Bran's not even going to be able to get close to Sauron, even through Greenseeing due to Sauron's aura of terror. This guy's mental mastery, and power to influence and control others should never ever be underestimated. It took the power of the first Dark Lord to make this guy fall.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, I'm putting my foot down on this. The Director's opinion is no greater than yours or mine. I am [b]Letting you have the 200K but ONLY for the Orcs and even then thats ONLY the 2nd host. The 1st Host led by the Witch King and Gothmog out of Minas Morgul is an entirely separate force, then there's Sauron's 6 other forces. Nor does it cover the Elves and realms of men, hobbits the Eagles, the Dwarves, or any of the other forces of Good. And that is because you are stalling the thread arguing a point nobody else agrees with. Besides, numbers alone are not enough. Move on. [/B]
Originally posted by StealthRanger
As Dark said, 200K was just one of Sauron's orc armies alone, not factoring in other forces like Easterlings, Haradrim, Corsairs of Umbar, Trolls, etcSauron had plenty more just like that and worse back at home, that the Free Peoples admitted they had no chance at all against (say, didn't one part of the special features in ROTK say Sauron had 600,000 troops at Minas Tirith?)
Besides, like I and others have said, numbers are more or less irrelevant when your opponents have many characters who can do shit like destroy mountains, shift islands magically, destroy fortresses magically
No, I'm mocking you because your opinions are founded in little more than just that, with zero substance at all. And no "it's muh opinion" isn't some silver bullet point for making your argument valid
I can't believe you'll take the Director's words for poor argumentation.
But any ways. I went and did further research and i found this well founded and evidenced webpage.
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/armies-of-middle-earth.4431/
This is the Tolkien forum and they are discussing the Armies of the Trilogy and the Hobbit it seems.
I did my calculations. I added all numbers given in that page. And it seems that LoTR combined forces dont exceed 200K!!!!!
You can check the comments bellow that thread. Everyone seems to agree with him.
Now i got the Director's opinion and the Internet backing me up here guys.
I've search all through the web and i haven't found any site supporting you claims people.
This new site i found even disclaim your points even further guys. The forces estimated for both LoTR and BoT5A don't even surpass the 200K.
Now people! Am giving you 500K!!! Am being very generous, because in NO WEBPAGE, FORUM, OR SITE, Do the numbers even reach as close.
If you can manage to bring me evidence that the numbers reach 500K i will be generous and give you 600K or maybe even 700K. But that won't happen cause i've been searching and searching and nowhere i can see your numbers.
Am sorry but my statement is Clear and Concise. 500K it is for LoTR and BoT5A. Simply there is no evidence saying it can surpass those numbers. Not even evidence saying that it even reaches 500K.
Please let's not swim against the current.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Allow me to help you understand. You are looking at Sauron specifically as if he were a modern human being from our own Earth. He is not.Sauron (originally Mairon, the servant of Aule the Smith, Valar of the Forge) is a Maiar. What we would equate to an Angel. He has lived even longer than the planet Arda, as he was one of the many Ainur who sung the songs of creation. He is specifically older, and more knowlegable than the Weirwoods that give the Greenseers, including Bran, their power.
We are talking about a spirit capable of reshaping the lands of the world, as that was part of the Maiar's job, as much as that of the Valar.
I mean, Bran is no Sheogorath, and the only way the Maiar went mad, was when they listened to Melkor/Morgoth, and followed his will instead of Eru's. And this is true for any Maiar. Saruman, another maiar, and an Iistari only went mad because of Sauron's mental f**kery through the Palantir. Bran's not even going to be able to get close to Sauron, even through Greenseeing due to Sauron's aura of terror. This guy's mental mastery, and power to influence and control others should never ever be underestimated. It took the power of the first Dark Lord to make this guy fall.
IK who sauron is.
But it makes no matter. Even he would be surprised and awe to hear voices from nowhere. Of hearing things without him knowing where they come from. Even Angels can go crazy.
I believe Sauron would get affected by Bran's Greenseeing.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I can't believe you'll take the Director's words for poor argumentation.But any ways. I went and did further research and i found this well founded and evidenced webpage.
http://www.thetolkienforum.com/index.php?threads/armies-of-middle-earth.4431/
This is the Tolkien forum and they are discussing the Armies of the Trilogy and the Hobbit it seems.
I did my calculations. I added all numbers given in that page. And it seems that LoTR combined forces dont exceed 200K!!!!!
You can check the comments bellow that thread. Everyone seems to agree with him.
Now i got the Director's opinion and the Internet backing me up here guys.
I've search all through the web and i haven't found any site supporting you claims people.
This new site i found even disclaim your points even further guys. The forces estimated for both LoTR and BoT5A don't even surpass the 200K.
Now people! Am giving you 500K!!! Am being very generous, because in NO WEBPAGE, FORUM, OR SITE, Do the numbers even reach as close.
If you can manage to bring me evidence that the numbers reach 500K i will be generous and give you 600K or maybe even 700K. But that won't happen cause i've been searching and searching and nowhere i can see your numbers.
Am sorry but my statement is Clear and Concise. 500K it is for LoTR and BoT5A. Simply there is no evidence saying it can surpass those numbers. Not even evidence saying that it even reaches 500K.
Please let's not swim against the current.
I'm not arguing with you about numbers again. You keep returning to previously shot down points. I told you to leave it be. I do my own independent research, and that, combined with the lore Tolkien DID put out is not conductive to the numbers you are trying to force ON YOUR OPPONENT'S SIDE I may add. And ultimately, the numbers are irrelevant anyway if you can't stop some of the characters from just wading through the numbers like Moses parting the Red Sea.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
IK who sauron is.But it makes no matter. Even he would be surprised and awe to hear voices from nowhere. Of hearing things without him knowing where they come from. Even Angels can go crazy.
I believe Sauron would get affected by Bran's Greenseeing.
Why? Sauron himself does the same thing on the regular. This is not new to Sauron. You overestimate Bran;s ability to withstand Sauron's presence alone. Bran was affected by the touch of the Night King. Sauron's presence, even without his ring, so so... SO much worse.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I'm not arguing with you about numbers again. You keep returning to previously shot down points. I told you to leave it be. I do my own independent research, and that, combined with the lore Tolkien DID put out is not conductive to the numbers you are trying to force ON YOUR OPPONENT'S SIDE I may add. And ultimately, the numbers are irrelevant anyway if you can't stop some of the characters from just wading through the numbers like Moses parting the Red Sea.
My points aren't shut down. They are evidenced and backed up as i've said before.
Okay if you are not arguing my numbers then what are you doing?
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Why? Sauron himself does the same thing on the regular. This is not new to Sauron. You overestimate Bran;s ability to withstand Sauron's presence alone. Bran was affected by the touch of the Night King. Sauron's presence, even without his ring, so so... SO much worse.
No. Sauron's way of Mental Attack is through the ring! And it's completly different than Greenseeing.
Also the NK is believed to have a connection to Bran. That's why he can do it. No other White Walker or being can interfere with Bran's Greenseeing. At least it hasn't been proven.
No you are Underestimating Bran's Ability. If the Theories are right. Bran will eventually become a Reality Warper. That means he will be powerful enough to travel to different ages and change things up!
Thats a whole level thing! Sauron has never been able to time travel.
Originally posted by StealthRanger
You so realise that First Age elves and Numenorean Empire are well before the War of the Ring, right?The again, you are mentally retarded so.... 👆
You said it. Well before. That doesn't concern this thread.
Again leave your personal comments to yourself.
If you guys keep the insulting i will contact a moderator! I care less for your insulting and it doesn't even prove any of your points.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
My points aren't shut down. They are evidenced and backed up as i've said before.Okay if you are not arguing my numbers then what are you doing?
You are mistaking evidence for accepted opinion. I'm telling you to reach your own conclusion as we all have. Ad populem fallacy is not a good way to debate, and I urge you to look at the actual source materials (Not the commentaries or others opinions, I mean the actual films and the books) and reach your own conclusion with your own deductive reasoning and logic. I'm not trying to dictate numbers to you, so I do not know why you are trying to dictate numbers to your opponents here. Especially in the face of it being irrelevant to other, more immediate concerns.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. Sauron's way of Mental Attack is through the ring! And it's completly different than Greenseeing.
Incorrect. He was doing it LOOOOONG before the ring was ever forged. And he was also doing it while without the ring, in a depowered state, against Saruman.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Also the NK is believed to have a connection to Bran. That's why he can do it. No other White Walker or being can interfere with Bran's Greenseeing. At least it hasn't been proven.
What connection? If that is from a fan theory like bran actually IS the Night King or other some such nonsesne, then no... thats not even remotely admissable.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No you are Underestimating Bran's Ability. If the Theories are right. Bran will eventually become a Reality Warper. That means he will be powerful enough to travel to different ages and change things up!
We arn't using hypothetical future variants of Bran here. And nothing he does is time travel. He can send uncontrolled words into the past, thats how Hodor was Hodor. Anything else is pure speculative and we cannot use it. However, Sauron's mental feats are too numerous and varied to list here, and would take minds more learned than mine to explain.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Thats a whole level thing! Sauron has never been able to time travel.
If we go by the hypotheticals you like so much, then as an angel/Maiar, of course he can. The magical wonders of the 2nd age and prior are so far out there you'd have to compare it to things like Elder Scrolls, or Legend of Zelda levels of magical f**knuttery.