A Song of Ice and Fire armies vs the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings armies

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Bahahahahaha! Calling you unreasonable isnt insulting ypu. I said you were unreasonable here, which is true.

Actually no. Am very old to debate, thats why am so good.

You want to know why i have the Living Tribunal as my profile pic? Cause am impartial, just like LT. I dont just go arround posting on threads without doing research of my own first. Thats the reason why i managed to smash your points here. And thats why i dont surrender to my points.

[B]I always pick the winning side based on facts 😉 you should try it sometime [/B]

I don't care if you picked the TOAA as your avatar, that has nothing to do with the boy behind the screen posting this nonsense at me.

And no, you're not. your posting style and poor grasp of sentence cohesion tells me you are either not a native english speaker, or very young indeed. Perhaps both.

And no, repeating your assertions over and over and over and over ad nausem is not destroying my point. It's burying civil discussion under a pile of absolute nonsense. Thats not debating Josh, thats stifling discussion. If I had the same fire as my old days, I would have already blasted you quite overwhelmingly for doing this exact thing, because it ruins threads.

You produced no facts. And no, your opinions are not fact. The only thing you produced was internet concensus, which falls under the Argumentum Ad Populum Logical Fallacy which I do not even have to aknowledge under the rules of any debating forum.

Now, are you done with your trash talking? Are you going to either debate respectfully and cohesively, or are you going to leave?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I don't care if you picked the TOAA as your avatar, that has nothing to do with the boy behind the screen posting this nonsense at me.

And no, you're not. your posting style and poor grasp of sentence cohesion tells me you are either not a native english speaker, or very young indeed. Perhaps both.

And no, repeating your assertions over and over and over and over ad nausem is not destroying my point. It's burying civil discussion under a pile of absolute nonsense. Thats not debating Josh, thats stifling discussion. If I had the same fire as my old days, I would have already blasted you quite overwhelmingly for doing this exact thing, because it ruins threads.

You produced no facts. And no, your opinions are not fact. The only thing you produced was internet concensus, which falls under the Argumentum Ad Populum Logical Fallacy which I do not even have to aknowledge under the rules of any debating forum.

Now, are you done with your trash talking? Are you going to either debate respectfully and cohesively, or are you going to leave?

Attacking me won't strenghten nor prove your points Dark. I hope i can expect a bit of maturity from your part.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You produced no facts. And no, your opinions are not fact. The only thing you produced was internet concensus, which falls under the Argumentum Ad Populum Logical Fallacy which I do not even have to aknowledge under the rules of any debating forum.

Remember, kiddies, that Google, YouTube, and Wikipedia are your friends. Use them wisely to find all sorts of neat material for your threads.

Impediment's own words. I don't think i have to say anything else.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Impediment's own words. I don't think i have to say anything else.

And you think those things are actually infallible? That no matter what it is, it cannot ever be factually wrong? Hows about I link you to any of Keemstar's videos where he talks absolute verbal diarrhoea. would what he say be considered fact then? Or hows about I go to the Night King's page on GOT wiki, and put up there in an edit that his ice spikes are actually all penises that he uses to breed magical monkeys? Would that me factually correct? Because the internet will say it, even if it gets edited out within five minutes, it was still there, I can screenshot it and this it was indisputible fact?

Of course it's not. The only irrefutable facts for any fictional debate like this is the source material.

To everyone's knowledge i will withdraw form this thread.

It seems it is clear enough that i have stated my opinion and i have debated each and every single one of you with arguments, evidence, and logic. I have posted several links from good pages backing up my ideas, which is valid according to this forum's rules.

It was fun to debate and hear your points of views. I respect your opinions although i might not agree to them.

It is a shame most of you can't debate without having to take things personally and using harming comments to try discourage others from posting. All you manage to do is harm the threads, and weaken your ideas.

Having said that LT won't take part of this thread anymore.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And you think those things are actually infallible? That no matter what it is, it cannot ever be factually wrong? Hows about I link you to any of Keemstar's videos where he talks absolute verbal diarrhoea. would what he say be considered fact then? Or hows about I go to the Night King's page on GOT wiki, and put up there in an edit that his ice spikes are actually all penises that he uses to breed magical monkeys? Would that me factually correct? Because the internet will say it, even if it gets edited out within five minutes, it was still there, I can screenshot it and this it was indisputible fact?

Of course it's not. The only irrefutable facts for any fictional debate like this is the source material.

They are infallible if it comes from 10+ pages? I don't think 10 pages can be wrong on the samething.

I didn't based my points on mere wikis.

Are you going against impediment's rules?

Cause let me tell you something. This tread has broken several rules already. Am sure you don't want it shut down.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
[B] To everyone's knowledge i will withdraw form this thread.

It seems it is clear enough that i have stated my opinion and i have debated each and every single one of you with arguments, evidence, and logic. I have posted several links from good pages backing up my ideas, which is valid according to this forum's rules.

It was fun to debate and hear your points of views. I respect your opinions although i might not agree to them.

It is a shame most of you can't debate without having to take things personally and using harming comments to try discourage others from posting. All you manage to do is harm the threads, and weaken your ideas.

Having said that LT won't take part of this thread anymore. [/B]

Oh stop... I never insulted you. I told you exactly how and why you were wrong, and you refused to listen to anything I said. Thus you stalled the debate on numbers, the army of the dead being restricted, the Walkers and Wights invulnerabilities and you refused to come to the table on any of it. You kept pointing to the opinions of others as though they were unassailable fact.

Besides, your adversion to the Spacebattles thread was based on hogwash too. Every vs debate in existence anywhere, and not just the internet, is a hypothetical debate, a what of scenario.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Oh stop... I never insulted you. I told you exactly how and why you were wrong, and you refused to listen to anything I said. Thus you stalled the debate on numbers, the army of the dead being restricted, the Walkers and Wights invulnerabilities and you refused to come to the table on any of it. You kept pointing to the opinions of others as though they were unassailable fact.

Besides, your adversion to the Spacebattles thread was based on hogwash too. Every vs debate in existence anywhere, and not just the internet, is a hypothetical debate, a what of scenario.

I've made myself clear. Any moderator can verify all the arguments placed in my last message.

Verify the misbehavior in thread. Verify the use of bad language. Verify that i was using links of several webpages which is valid according to Impediment's rules.

Verify that the rules of this thread were shifted from time to time. Like for instance the rule that stated that both Books and Movies were cannon. And then you guys said that Peterson's words were non-canon.

Sorry Dark but i withdraw. I am here to debate not to fight and be in hostile conditions.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I've made myself clear. Any moderator can verify all the arguments placed in my last message.

Verify the misbehavior in thread. Verify the use of bad language. Verify that i was using links of several webpages which is valid according to Impediment's rules.

Verify that the rules of this thread were shifted from time to time. Like for instance the rule that stated that both Books and Movies were cannon. And then you guys said that Peterson's words were non-canon.

[B] Sorry Dark but i withdraw. I am here to debate not to fight and be in hostile conditions. [/B]

I didn't say Jackson's word was non-canon. I said hos word doesn't mean what you think it does. Thats not rule shifting.

And when have I flamed or insulted you? YOU called me unreasonable, and that was a personal attack on MY character. I never insulted or called YOU anything.

Wiki, google and youtube are alright sources for general information, but they always get trumped by source material. This is true for any franchise. You should know this if you've been doing it for a while. You'll get trounced in any debate and mocked horribly by a lot of debaters around the net for this sort of debating. I'm not saying that to hurt or insult you dude, I'm trying to help you.

Well, this was fun... I guess... lmao

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero

Wiki, google and youtube are alright sources for general information, but they always get trumped by source material. This is true for any franchise. You should know this if you've been doing it for a while. You'll get trounced in any debate and mocked horribly by a lot of debaters around the net for this sort of debating. I'm not saying that to hurt or insult you dude, I'm trying to help you.

In this case the book failed to give evidence.

And no. For instace, if the book would have said that Saurons army was of 700K. When i would have done my research. I would have found 700K. Instead, i find this that says that the books fail to give evidence.

But am not gonna argue this anymore.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
In this case the book failed to give evidence.

And no. For instace, if the book would have said that Saurons army was of 700K. When i would have done my research. I would have found 700K. Instead, i find this that says that the books fail to give evidence.

But am not gonna argue this anymore.

Not necessarily, as Tolkien is deliberately vague with that in order to create a sense of scale. Which is why instead of solid numbers, we have descriptors like the Orcs swarming around the Gorgoroth and Udun Plateaus like ants. he does that to create a sense of scale/ That aside though, I'm going to do you a solid here.

I'm going to do a writeup of the numbers you'll be facing as I've researched them them. That being said, I'm still not convinced the numbers matter all that much in the face of the disparity in quality.

Sauron's Mordor 1st Host (The one that attacked Osgiliath and later Minas Tirith)

Roughly 200K Mordor 1st Host made up of:
[list=1]
[*]100,000 standard Mordor Orc soldiers.
[*]about 20,000 Morannon and Minas Morgal Elites.
[*]30,000 Black Uruk-Kai
[*]20,000 Black Numenorean Foot Knights and Morgal Knights mounted on Dark Steeds
[*]About 30,000 of various other units such as Orc Trackers, Warg Riders, Speciatly units like the Orc Stalkers of Minas Morgul, Morgul Spectres, and other monsters within Sauron's forces such as the giant spiders of Dol Guldur, and the various Mordor Trolls.
[/list=1]

This doesn't include things like at least a hundred siege weapons like the various catapults, siege towers, and siege bows Mordor uses. Nor does it include special characters like the Nazgul, their fell beasts, Gothmog or any other named characters.

Now, we double this number for Sauron's 2nd Host (This is where Jackson made his comment in the movie, stating that the army seen onscreen is roughly 200K), thats 400K of Mordor's army.

Roughly 200K Mordor 2nd Host made up of:
[list=1]
[*]100,000 standard Mordor Orc soldiers.
[*]about 20,000 Morannon and Black Guard of Barad Dur Elites.
[*]30,000 Black Uruk-Kai
[*]20,000 Black Numenorean Foot Knights and Morgal Knights mounted on Dark Steeds (Roughly a quarter of these would be Venomblade Knights.)
[*]About 30,000 of various other units such as Orc Trackers, Warg Riders, Speciatly units like the Orc Stalkers of Minas Morgul, Morgul Spectres, and other monsters within Sauron's forces such as the giant spiders of Dol Guldur, and the various Mordor Trolls.
[/list=1]

Follow me so far?

Ok, now we get to the OTHER forces of Sauron not specifically from Mordor itself. First, lets start with the Easterlings.

The Easterling Armies.. I'd say around 37K, that should suffice:
[list=1]
[*]About 10,000 Warriors of Rhun. (About 3K of these would be Black Dragon veterans)
[*]About 10,000 Variag Warriors of Khand
[*]5000 Rhunish Kataphrakt Cavalry (Again, 1K would be Black Dragon vets)
[*]10,000 Khandish Horsemen
[*]About 2000 Khandish Charioteers
[/list=1]

Again, this doesn't include specials such as named characters, or siege weapons. Amur' the Lord of the Blades was said to be an absolute monster from Rhun, a warrior prodigy.

Ok, next up, we have Harad and Umbar. Now this is a big one, because Harad when going to war, were able to field armies large enough to match Gondor at it's peak. hard to give this a number, but I'll try.

[list=1]
[*]50,000 Haradrim Warriors
[*]20,000 Haradrim Raiders (Horsemen)
[*]5000 Corsairs of Umbar (About 500 of these can be Corsair Reavers)
[*]3000 Corsair Arbalesters
[*]500 Watchers of Karna
[*]20,000 Abrakahn Merchant Guardsmen
[*]Black Numenorean Knights of Umbar
[*]50,000 Mahud Tribal Warriors of Far Harad
[*]10,000 Mahud Raiders (Mounted Cavalry
[*]500 Half Trolls of Far Harad
[*]about 20 War Mumakil of Harad
[/list=1]

Now we come to the forces of Angmar... These monsters are more exotic than normal, outside of Dol Guldur I suppose...

[list=1]
[*]About 50 Barrow Wights
[*]About 25 Angmar Shades
[*]about 5000 Angmar Orcs (Including Gundabad)
[*]2000 Warg Riders
[*]100 Angmar Spectres
[*]10,000 Wild Wargs (Including about 2000 of these being Fell Wargs)
[*]About 20 Cave Trolls
[/list=1]

Next and finally, we come to Moria and The Misty Mountains.

[list=1]
[*]About 50,000 Moria Goblin Warriors
[*]Another 10,000 being Gundabad Blackshield veterans
[*]about 3000 Moria Goblin Prowlers
[/list=1]

Now, be made aware, these lists do not include exotic monsters, or special units, or siege weapons or anything like that. Those would be separately done. But these are the numbers of the bad guy armies from Lord of the Rings as I saw them.

Ah shit... I forgot Angmar's Ghostly Legions...

About 10,000 Ghost warriors and 3K Ghost riders.

Aaaand forgot the Isengard force too.... damn it....

5000 Fighting Uruk Warriors
1000 Uruk Berzerkers
2000 Feral Uruk
2000 Uruk Scouts
About 5000 Mordor Orcs

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Not necessarily, as Tolkien is deliberately vague with that in order to create a sense of scale. Which is why instead of solid numbers, we have descriptors like the Orcs swarming around the Gorgoroth and Udun Plateaus like ants. he does that to create a sense of scale/ That aside though, I'm going to do you a solid here.

I'm going to do a writeup of the numbers you'll be facing as I've researched them them. That being said, I'm still not convinced the numbers matter all that much in the face of the disparity in quality.

Sauron's Mordor 1st Host (The one that attacked Osgiliath and later Minas Tirith)

Roughly 200K Mordor 1st Host made up of:
[list=1]
[*]100,000 standard Mordor Orc soldiers.
[*]about 20,000 Morannon and Minas Morgal Elites.
[*]30,000 Black Uruk-Kai
[*]20,000 Black Numenorean Foot Knights and Morgal Knights mounted on Dark Steeds
[*]About 30,000 of various other units such as Orc Trackers, Warg Riders, Speciatly units like the Orc Stalkers of Minas Morgul, Morgul Spectres, and other monsters within Sauron's forces such as the giant spiders of Dol Guldur, and the various Mordor Trolls.
[/list=1]

This doesn't include things like at least a hundred siege weapons like the various catapults, siege towers, and siege bows Mordor uses. Nor does it include special characters like the Nazgul, their fell beasts, Gothmog or any other named characters.

Now, we double this number for Sauron's 2nd Host (This is where Jackson made his comment in the movie, stating that the army seen onscreen is roughly 200K), thats 400K of Mordor's army.

Roughly 200K Mordor 2nd Host made up of:
[list=1]
[*]100,000 standard Mordor Orc soldiers.
[*]about 20,000 Morannon and Black Guard of Barad Dur Elites.
[*]30,000 Black Uruk-Kai
[*]20,000 Black Numenorean Foot Knights and Morgal Knights mounted on Dark Steeds (Roughly a quarter of these would be Venomblade Knights.)
[*]About 30,000 of various other units such as Orc Trackers, Warg Riders, Speciatly units like the Orc Stalkers of Minas Morgul, Morgul Spectres, and other monsters within Sauron's forces such as the giant spiders of Dol Guldur, and the various Mordor Trolls.
[/list=1]

Follow me so far?

Ok, now we get to the OTHER forces of Sauron not specifically from Mordor itself. First, lets start with the Easterlings.

The Easterling Armies.. I'd say around 37K, that should suffice:
[list=1]
[*]About 10,000 Warriors of Rhun. (About 3K of these would be Black Dragon veterans)
[*]About 10,000 Variag Warriors of Khand
[*]5000 Rhunish Kataphrakt Cavalry (Again, 1K would be Black Dragon vets)
[*]10,000 Khandish Horsemen
[*]About 2000 Khandish Charioteers
[/list=1]

Again, this doesn't include specials such as named characters, or siege weapons. Amur' the Lord of the Blades was said to be an absolute monster from Rhun, a warrior prodigy.

Ok, next up, we have Harad and Umbar. Now this is a big one, because Harad when going to war, were able to field armies large enough to match Gondor at it's peak. hard to give this a number, but I'll try.

[list=1]
[*]50,000 Haradrim Warriors
[*]20,000 Haradrim Raiders (Horsemen)
[*]5000 Corsairs of Umbar (About 500 of these can be Corsair Reavers)
[*]3000 Corsair Arbalesters
[*]500 Watchers of Karna
[*]20,000 Abrakahn Merchant Guardsmen
[*]Black Numenorean Knights of Umbar
[*]50,000 Mahud Tribal Warriors of Far Harad
[*]10,000 Mahud Raiders (Mounted Cavalry
[*]500 Half Trolls of Far Harad
[*]about 20 War Mumakil of Harad
[/list=1]

Now we come to the forces of Angmar... These monsters are more exotic than normal, outside of Dol Guldur I suppose...

[list=1]
[*]About 50 Barrow Wights
[*]About 25 Angmar Shades
[*]about 5000 Angmar Orcs (Including Gundabad)
[*]2000 Warg Riders
[*]100 Angmar Spectres
[*]10,000 Wild Wargs (Including about 2000 of these being Fell Wargs)
[*]About 20 Cave Trolls
[/list=1]

Next and finally, we come to Moria and The Misty Mountains.

[list=1]
[*]About 50,000 Moria Goblin Warriors
[*]Another 10,000 being Gundabad Blackshield veterans
[*]about 3000 Moria Goblin Prowlers
[/list=1]

Now, be made aware, these lists do not include exotic monsters, or special units, or siege weapons or anything like that. Those would be separately done. But these are the numbers of the bad guy armies from Lord of the Rings as I saw them.

Although you have based your numbers on speculations i will give you that benefit.

I have added your numbers and they wont surpass 1.2M.

So Sauron has 1.2 M. Again. Saurons Army is the largest. Not all the allies troops together could even reach half of what Sauron has.

I would say 2M max for LoTR.

Let me give you numbers for Westeros only.

Stark army: 40K (Houses of the North
Lannisters: 70K before the wars.
Renly's army: 100K
Stannis Army: 50K
Martells Army: 20K
Greyjoys Army: 20K
Tullys Army: 20K
Frey's Army: 4K
Arryn's Army: 40K
Wildlings Army: 100K

That places the Houses of Westeros at 500K.

Now Westeros isnt half as populated as Essos is.

And i havent taken the armies of the dead.

We can easily outnumber here. One way or another.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Although you have based your numbers on speculations i will give you that benefit.

I have added your numbers and they wont surpass 1.2M.

So Sauron has 1.2 M. Again. Saurons Army is the largest. Not all the allies troops together could even reach half of what Sauron has.

I would say 2M max for LoTR.

Let me give you numbers for Westeros only.

Stark army: 40K (Houses of the North
Lannisters: 70K before the wars.
Renly's army: 100K
Stannis Army: 50K
Martells Army: 20K
Greyjoys Army: 20K
Tullys Army: 20K
Frey's Army: 4K
Arryn's Army: 40K
Wildlings Army: 100K

That places the Houses of Westeros at 500K.

Now Westeros isnt half as populated as Essos is.

And i havent taken the armies of the dead.

We can easily outnumber here. One way or another.

And this, is why I said the numbers arn't going to matter much 🙂

The forces of the good side in LOTR arn't as numerous as Sauron's forces, but they are of better quality than just about any force on the table.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And this, is why I said the numbers arn't going to matter much 🙂

The forces of the good side in LOTR arn't as numerous as Sauron's forces, but they are of better quality than just about any force on the table.

I wouldnt disagree on the elves side.

But GoT humans are better than yours.

And the dwarfs are a minority just like the elves. They would die sooner or later.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I wouldnt disagree on the elves side.

But GoT humans are better than yours.

And the dwarfs are a minority just like the elves. They would die sooner or later.

Uh, what? No they certainly are not. They are more numerous, however, very few of the Westerosi armies are actually professional soldiers. Most of them are barely trained levy troops, which are conscripted peasant soldiers. Meanwhile, Gondor and her feifs have standing armies of professional soldiers most of which have many years of experience fighting Sauron's forces.

The Riders of Rohan and the Riddermark are just as experienced as well.

And don't underestimate the Dwarves just because they havn't recovered their numbers yet. There are dwarven holds all over Middle Earth, not just Erebor.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Uh, what? No they certainly are not. They are more numerous, however, very few of the Westerosi armies are actually professional soldiers. Most of them are barely trained levy troops, which are conscripted peasant soldiers. Meanwhile, Gondor and her feifs have standing armies of professional soldiers most of which have many years of experience fighting Sauron's forces.
.

No you are wrong.

The numbers i gave you were of pure soldiers.

ASOIF humans are better than LoTR ones.

As we've discussed before, GoT is more realistic.

Your human armies were comprised of old men, children and a few soldiers. As seen when Saruman attacked Rohan.

When i say 70K lannisters, i mean 70K soldiers trained for war.

Where LoTR has the advantage in physical strenght (orcs, elfs, and dwarfs) ASOIF has the advantage in troops, and strategy.

No commander of LoTR even reaches to the talon of Tywin Lannister.

I believe we got better humans and better coordination at the battlefield.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No you are wrong.

Explain.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
The numbers i gave you were of pure soldiers.

I'm not talking about numbers at all, I'm now talking about the quality of the troops.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
ASOIF humans are better than LoTR ones.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
As we've discussed before, GoT is more realistic.

Realistic does not mean better.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Your human armies were comprised of old men, children and a few soldiers. As seen when Saruman attacked Rohan.

So, Eomer's Riddermark and theoden's entire host is not taken into account at all? Why?

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
When i say 70K lannisters, i mean 70K soldiers trained for war.

Except that the majority of that is LEVY TROOPS. less than a third of that would be a standing force, and even then only very wealthy great houses actually even have those. Lets not forget that Westeros is a feudalist society. The only people with any real combat experience are annointed knights. And those are measured in triple digits across Westeros. You are more likely to find your seasoned solders in Essos, where they are trained and blooded, like the Unsullied, or even the Dothraki, even though the Dothraki are not really trained. Hell, even the merc companies from the disputed lands, or the standing armies of the free cities would be better spots to pick from than Westeros in terms of good quality fighters. Joffrey even makes mention of these facets when he talks t his mother about military power.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Where LoTR has the advantage in physical strenght (orcs, elfs, and dwarfs) ASOIF has the advantage in troops, and strategy.

Lol, ASOIAF troops are not all that great. And strategy is debatable, considering Gondor alone held back the far superior forces of mordor for FIVE THOUSAND YEARS. They managed to hold that crumbling line against superior forces for five thousand years.... That is no small feat.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No commander of LoTR even reaches to the talon of Tywin Lannister.

The council of the wise, and indeed Sauron himself disagrees.

Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I believe we got better humans and better coordination at the battlefield.

But these two things are debatable, especially in the face of magical communications thanks to Sauron (This is how me called the armies of far distant lands to the east and south to fight for him on extremely short notice.)