Originally posted by twotter
From it's conception, it is literally a writer compiling his research, which is either extensive or wanting, and making an analysis forthwith. That is the process for the majority of outsourced accolades. This describes how we can sift through 1000 publications before finding anecdotes lamenting Malak's force power against the ancients. Once published, it's up to the reader to decide how much credence paid for any given 'canonical' quote. And as we see with the Darth Plagueis blurb, just because something is written in canon, does not mean it's a fact. Because rather than being part of the 'continuity' itself, it's an interpretation of the continuity, and henceforth, has "license to be subjective".
You are making a few big leaps here. Chee only states that blurbs have a “license to be subjective” but does not extend this to any other type of source. But for some reason you then assume this is because it merely “interprets continuity” instead of creating new continuity. The problem with this is that Chee does not state any reasoning for why blurbs have license to be subjective, so assuming it’s because of their content (interpreting continuity instead of adding to it) is baseless. It could be for an entirely different reason, for all we know.
FYI Az... If I can personally view the action on my Attack of the Clones DVD, I don't need three different fact-file descriptions explaining Dooku vs Yoda. If they're just describing the action from a POV, rather than providing the thoughts of characters on display, then I can make a decent enough analysis myself - or at the very least - choose a quote that describes the events best. Which is why a titanic struggle of powers with neither besting the other is better substituted with the events on-screen accurately described in a different way by the Complete Star Wars Encyclopaedia - Dooku attempting to subdue Yoda with the Force and failing.
Yes, you can make an analysis yourself, but your analysis will only be your own opinion on events, not fact. Sourcebook quotes reveal what was actually happening during the scene. For example, our fellow member Stealth Moose posted an analysis of the Sheev vs Yoda fight here which heavily favored Yoda, based on just movie fight choreography, and then treated it as fact over a myriad of statements declaring Sheev the victor and too powerful for Yoda. This doesn’t work because, as I said, it is merely his opinion and commentary on fight choreography that isn’t intended to be a realistic depiction of swordplay but rather simply a bit of flashy effects to be marveled and enjoyed.
One could easily make an analysis that favors Sheev instead based on the exact same scenes and lightsaber moves. And when so many people can arrive at totally different conclusions, none of it can actually treated as fact and we are left scrambling in the dark if we ever want an objective analysis of the fight.
This is where sourcebook quotes come in. As part of canon, they facts, and thus shed an objective light on the source material. They tell us what is actually happening in a scene, and override any fan theories or analyses.
So let me ask you Az, are Exar Kun's grandiose displays of power a result of an inconsistent medium (where Force users are generally not busting armies and are regularly challenged by solderin) or are they a result of the creator thinking him comparable to the toppest tier of sith and Dooku's certain superior..? You kind of answered the question yourself. Are you also conceding DE Palatine's planetary exposition as something inconsistently high-end..? in spite of claiming him and those attached to him having powers to threaten the entire Galaxy? You don't have to answer that rhetorical dig at you, because we both know the answer.
I’m afraid you missed my point here somewhat. I was not saying that Kun’s and Palpatine’s feats are “inconsistently high-end,” I was saying that Dooku getting captured by pirates and TCW feats in general for the most part are inconsistently low-end.
Lets make it simple then. The feat I mentioned above for Kun has Dooku severely outclassed in all mediums. The fact that you can't scrounge a showing For Dooku of comparable nature, despite his coverage being 100 times as many sources, is telling. The ability to throw objects in Yoda's direction and have precisely nothing happen to the little fella doesn't count either. The reverse scale that attributes Anakin and Yoda's 'army busting' feats also amounts to little as well. Dooku's respective relationships to them both, is as an inferior. Inferior to Anakin to the point where the latter can simply decide to win a duel when unrestrained. And inferior to Yoda by the Lucas/Gillard tier system - a richter scale seismometer difference - which means he barley lasts 40 seconds agasint him in a duel and the gap between their powers can't be bridged with a planetary Nexus either. The best case you can make is that Anakin has some feat in the Clone Wars micro-series to benefit Dooku. This feat of course, would have to beat Kun's stasis-field over a - rather conservative estimate - of 50,000 people in the stadium (based on dimension scaling it's more likely 100,000 + click me and cick me ). The contemptuous ease of the feat and the fact he can have a full fledged duel while maintaining it, as part of the equation too.
It has Dooku outclassed in terms of numbers and that’s about it. That’s not the only way to measure the impressiveness of feats as that would result in some rather absurd conclusions and as I’m sure you’ve heard of the phrase “quality over quantity” before.
But the reverse scaling from the likes of Yoda and Anakin does actually work, because Dooku was literally powerful enough not to get ragdolled by Yoda. Dooku is inferior to them sure, but not inferior to the point where either can simply fodderize him with the Force (unless Anakin taps into the dark side) and that in itself speaks volumes of Dooku’s own power level – which, to my mind at least, is certainly higher than Kun’s but that’s a discussion for another day as it relies on the assumption that Yoda would be able to dominate Kun which is way off-topic here.
Confirmed. Dooku's best showings on Korirban are maybe better than Spirit Kun's (Kyp excluded) but probably not. Outside of Korriaban however, none of this necisarily means he can't be captured by 30 pirates surrounding him. It just means he might not be able to use his powers quick enough to subvert their weaponry and omnidirectional position without getting shot. This isn't actually too far off from a lot of sources in legends, so no need to be concerned. It simply means Exar's powers are more efficient on top their grander scope.
This is a rather interesting point, one that I hadn’t thought of before, that Dooku being captured by pirates is not necessarily an indication of a lack of power on his part, but rather a lack of speed. I’d like to see these other Legends sources you are referring to first, though.
Desperately trying to cast TCW/Dark Disciple Dooku as an unusable entity, is doing what for your case exactly? And just throwing equivocating words like classic and [/i]EU[/i] isn't a nuanced enough plea to exclude the most pivotal portrayal of Dooku (outside of the movies) as an inconsequential blight on the character. For starters TCW is part of the EU. Before the split, it was considered "T-canon", so higher than C canon. Lucas himself commented on how he wanted a the action to be far more toned-down than the micro series from 2003. Because he didn't like the idea of Force users destroying entire droid battalions when so many of them struggled on Geonosis. And really, more sources from the EU are comparable to TCW than Tartakovsky's Clone Wars. Comparing their best feats respectively, Tyranus might as well be losing to 30 pirates when it comes to Kun, and he is.
What you say about T and C-canon may have been correct back in the day but now that system no longer exists and all are just lumped together as “Legends.” All Legends material is of equal value, and that includes TCW and the Clone Wars microseries.
Given the inconsistencies there, it is our job then to sort out the mess and establish the most consistent portrayals for the characters. In my mind, TCW is a clear outlier in the face of the rest of EU that portrays Force users comically low. I personally use it to supplement the classic EU portrayals of the characters if the two align well, but I do not use the lower end feats as the standard and throw out all others. For example:
”Mace isn't as powerful in Episode III as he was in the Clone Wars cartoons, therefore we won't see him single-handedly take out an army."
--Pablo Hidalgo]
Pablo literally states that in the movieverse and TCW, Mace is outright less powerful than he was in the microseries. What I gather from this, is that Force users in TCW have a lower power level than their EU counterparts that was placed upon them on purpose by the creators because it more accurately reflects the movies.
If you want to throw out all Legends feats that contradict these Canon ones, then why use Legends in the first place? You might as well solely use Canon Dooku if you want to use TCW feats as the standard. But for me, if I use a Legends character, then I will also use his Legends feats.
He's consistently described and portrayed as Force user of the second highest echelon. By all accounts. Someone who can be reasonably challenged by two dark-side adepts like Ventress and Savage. A false analysis of Yoda vs Dooku and a connect-the-dots quote chain does not change that.
Dooku was never seriously challenged by Ventress and Savage unless you go by Canon, and I don’t see what’s wrong with my analysis of the Yooku fight or my use of quote chains. But you should probably leave that to ILS as he’s the one I’m currently debating on the merits of the Yooku scaling.
Anyway, Ziggy, I don’t really have the energy or the desire to continue this debate and am busy with other things, so this might very well be my last post here. As such, I’ll clarify my stance on sourcebook quotes and rest my case for now:
If a quote is published into continuity, it is valid. It does not need other quotes or feats to support it; a single quote is enough to establish a fact. It can only be dismissed if it directly says something that’s blatantly false (for example, if there is a quote that says that character A is more powerful than character B, but we see that character A struggles with feats that character B doesn’t, like lifting a two-ton rock, then the quote is false), or is retconned later by another quote.
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Been awhile since I saw it, how was he exactly?
Talzin possessed and severely drained Dooku in order to restore herself. Then Sids blasted Dooku (further injuring him) to get Talzin out.
Also it was a stalemate until Dooku and Maul intervened. Guess what happened?
Maul and Talzin started to be pushed back.
So really the only thing to be gleaned from this is that a severely drained Dooku is >Maul
Also I'm still kinda pissed Maul didn't get that badass nightsister saberstaff from the cover
Originally posted by Greysentinel365
[B]Talzin possessed and severely drained Dooku in order to restore herself. Then Sids blasted Dooku (further injuring him) to get Talzin out.Also it was a stalemate until Dooku and Maul intervened. Guess what happened?
Maul and Talzin started to be pushed back.
So really the only thing to be gleaned from this is that a severely drained Dooku is >Maul
Also I'm still kinda pissed Maul didn't get that badass nightsister saberstaff from the cover
It seems when Dooku went in for the attack, talzin switched to a force barrier.
And Maul wasn't consistent in transferring his power to her
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Darth-Maul-Son-of-Dathomir/Issue-4?id=14666#19
Originally posted by Haschwalth
Reading over it, I didn't see them being pushed back...
Yep, that never happens until Maul was pushed away by Talzin.
Either way Grievous would have turned the fight one sided.
Originally posted by Haschwalth
It seems when Dooku went in for the attack, talzin switched to a force barrier.
And Maul wasn't consistent in transferring his power to her
http://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Darth-Maul-Son-of-Dathomir/Issue-4?id=14666#19
Yep.
Originally posted by Haschwalth
He put his hand on Talzins back, probably transferred his power like that.
Talzin refuses said offer by shoving him towards the ship.
Anyway, as Greyset has noted, Dooku was weakened and even if we assume that Maul gave Talzin his strength, we end up with Talzin being forced to use a force shield and no longer being able to attack.
There's absolutely no favorable comparison to Dooku for Maul to draw from this.
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yea, I'm pretty sure that was just a gesture to reinforce he wants to help her.Talzin refuses said offer by shoving him towards the ship.
Anyway, as Greyset has noted, Dooku was weakened and even if we assume that Maul gave Talzin his strength, we end up with Talzin being forced to use a force shield and no longer being able to attack.
There's absolutely no favorable comparison to Dooku for Maul to draw from this.
She shoved him to the ship after a struggle between the 4. She only rejected, him when Grievous was closing in. There was no indication she refused before then.
Nah, resorting to the force barrier just indicates, her lightning can not arc towards, Dooku's and with Sidious's at the same time, and probably the fact Maul was right behind her, which would of left him vulnerable.
And yeah, if we were to indicate, between the two, Mauls lack of a constant stream of energy to Talzin, with out them being pushed back indicates he is above the weakend Dooku.
@ Azronger
You are making a few big leaps here. Chee only states that blurbs have a “license to be subjective” but does not extend this to any other type of source.
If Chee thinks Blurbs are subjective then there's likely a reason why. A blurb - as defined by all the dictionaries in the world - is a short description of a book, film or other product written for promotional purposes. In other words, an interpretation of the source material that can be used to sell stuff. A description that can be applied to 99% of out-of-universe accolades found within comics, blogs, toys, sourcebooks and certainly can be applied to the latest Malak hype from Wizards of the Coast... a company that promotes and sells toys. Now based this thread, your current handling of the source material seems to be this:
- Blurb hyping Plagueis: "Can be subjective"
- Blog hyping Malak: "Indisputable fact of canon"
The set of principles here don't really add up, do they? Most importantly, what Leeland does with this statement is contradict the notion that if something is written in canon, it must be a fact. A mantra held by everyone whom clung to a blurb as proof of Plagueis' direct superiority to all who came before him. And a mantra held by those who think Darth Tryanus > TPM Mace > All Jedi to walk the temple > Revan >> SF Malak >> Kun is some sort of acceptable hierarchy of power, which is basically you and no one else at this point.
Yes, you can make an analysis yourself, but your analysis will only be your own opinion on events. Sourcebook quotes reveal what was actually happening during the scene.
If a quote is describing something we can see in the movies, unless it's revealing hidden elements such as character thoughts or off-screen antics, it's merely an analysis of the events from a writer's point of view, which does indeed make it subjective. Such quotes are not actively adding to the continuity, rather that they're interpreting it, and can certainly be cast aside if they're copiously detailed. Thus far, there hasn't been a sourcebook published that explains Sidious vs Yoda to the degree of comprehension that Stealth-Moose has, which means his analysis is better than anything you can find with an official license. You're argument is that because a statement is made with said license, it must be an indisputable fact. As we've established before, that isn't necessarily the case.
It has Dooku outclassed in terms of numbers and that’s about it.
That’s not the only way to measure the impressiveness of feats as that would result in some rather absurd conclusions and as I’m sure you’ve heard of the phrase “quality over quantity” before
Right. The feat in question bound the will of every person in a stadium. The stadium itself scaling larger than those that seat over 100,000 people. Now... we can disect what's actually happening here in perhaps two different ways. The first is that Kun is using a power to literally hold everyone in place. Like a set of restraints that allows no muscle movement whatsoever, keeping their entire body mass completely still. If this is the case it would certainly count as quantity, i.e. a massive feat. The idea here is that said power concentrated onto one target would be especially devastating. The fact that he could do something on said scale with no effort whatsoever, and maintain said spell while having a full fledged Force-imbued duel with Bass afterwards, put's him closer to micro-series Yoda than any incarnation of Dooku.
The second possibility is that Kun is using the force to paralyse everyone in sight by individually taking control of their central nervous systems; the tiny nerves within a persons spinal chord and brain that control actions. Which would be an intricate level of force application spread out across more than 100,000 people. Given that most sith and jedi find it hard to control a single target in such a manner, that would certainly count as quantity and quality. So next time you substitute arguments for idioms, you could at least use relevant ones.
But the reverse scaling from the likes of Yoda and Anakin does actually work,
No it doesn't.
because Dooku was literally powerful enough not to get ragdolled by Yoda.
You'll have to point out the source-material demonstrating Yoda attempting to grapple Dooku, with the latter resisting successfully. You can either find it in the films depicting the action literally, or the novel giving personal introspection from either characters point of view. Erroneous tertiary sources aren't going to cut it here, as they are subjective in nature. IE; there was no titanic struggle of Force powers between Dooku and Yoda, but rather that he deflected everything The Count threw at him, and bested him after 40 seconds of duelling. Not that this matters anyway - Force grappling against other Force users, is usually characterised by a lapse of defence on the victims part. For example Kirak stonewalling Vader's Force choke face to face, yet succumbing another time when distracted.
Dooku is inferior to them sure
but not inferior to the point where either can simply fodderize him with the Force (unless Anakin taps into the dark side) and that in itself speaks volumes of Dooku’s own power level
Dooku was getting plastered by a restrained pre-darkside Anakin in ROTS. This doesn't speak any volume to Dooku's power level other than his inferiority. By Gillard's estimation (again with Lucas' supervision), he's an entire tier below. A Richter Scale measurements difference. Literally speaking that would mean Yoda, Anakin and Sidious at their best, are some order of magnitude more powerful than Dooku. While this may be in exaggeration, it's elucidates his engagements with Ventress, Savage, Kenobi and Quinlan Vos.
This is a rather interesting point, one that I hadn’t thought of before, that Dooku being captured by pirates is not necessarily an indication of a lack of power on his part, but rather a lack of speed.
In other words, he's both outclassed in magnitude and application by Kun, yet he still is several power ups above by being inferior to both Anakin and Yoda.
What you say about T and C-canon may have been correct back in the day but now that system no longer exists and all are just lumped together as “Legends.”
Using the Holocron system of canon (legends) is usually forum etiquette, as debating old material is still on the cards. Of course, it suits you to dismiss it now, and is interesting that you choose to set the standards mid-way through the debate, after most of the main arguments have been made. Do I sense a lack of confidence here?
All Legends material is of equal value, and that includes TCW and the Clone Wars micro series.
The current paradigm, which you have chosen as the ultimate standard for our debate, classes TCW as canon - along with the movies - and the micro-series as Legends. Sorry to say that Count Dooku the pirate captive has greater standing in the mythos than microseries Dooku, who didn't really exhibit anything special anyway.
Given the inconsistencies there, it is our job then to sort out the mess and establish the most consistent portrayals for the characters. In my mind, TCW is a clear outlier in the face of the rest of EU that portrays Force users comically low.
Right. So your approach to establish Dooku's actual power level, is to sift through material and disavow content that doesn't do him justice. Hand-waving entire an TV series while your at it. Yet when Wizard of the Coast's Cory Herndon says that Malak is more powerful than Kun, it's a fact, with no wiggle room of dispute.
Pablo literally states that in the movieverse and TCW, Mace is outright less powerful than he was in the micro series.
Well done. Microseries-Mace is inconsistent with every other portrayal of the character. Including most classic EU material, where he isn't busting armies. Not that it matters, as there is no point during that sketch where Mace uses his powers on 100,000 targets in one go.
If you want to throw out all Legends feats that contradict these Canon ones, then why use Legends in the first place? You might as well solely use Canon Dooku if you want to use TCW feats as the standard.
As I said before Az, Exar has Dooku outclassed in all mediums. So I'm not really bothered by whatever cherry picking standard we (you) are using. For the sake of argument, lets say that TCW is low end, but rather than disregarding it entirely, we can take an average of all mediums to figure out where Dooku stands... and find out he is barely scraping spirit Kun.
Dooku was never seriously challenged by Ventress and Savage unless you go by Canon,
Anyway, Ziggy, I don’t really have the energy or the desire to continue this debate and am busy with other things
this might very well be my last post here. As such, I’ll clarify my stance on sourcebook quotes and rest my case for now:If a quote is published into continuity, it is valid. It does not need other quotes or feats to support it; a single quote is enough to establish a fact. It can only be dismissed if it directly says something that’s blatantly false (for example, if there is a quote that says that character A is more powerful than character B, but we see that character A struggles with feats that character B doesn’t, like lifting a two-ton rock, then the quote is false), or is retconned later by another quote.
That's nice. So you have chosen: it was written, therefore it's true. Hopefully you'll come to accept that not everyone will adhere to your own handling of continuity, nor do they have any reason to. And that more it more importably, it is your own take on canon, and one that isn't backed up by an authoritative figure with the same set of values. In fact almost every person responsible for handling material that now known as Legends, disagrees with this sentiment. The reason : they're intelligent.
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