Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

Unchained Vaylin is continuously portrayed by Valkorion and SWTOR sources as a greater threat than Revan ever was. 😬

Revan grew far more powerful than his KOTOR iteration ever was, and he is confirmed to have won against Malak due to greater Force prowess despite the massive hindrances of the Star Forge.

Malak uses the SF to grow ever more powerful, consistently, which is a literal sun compared to a glorified holodisk player (the Star Map) which Ajunta Pall specifically confirms was the source of the DJE's own power growth. That includes Karness Muur.

Karness Muur is clearly depicted as being superior to Vader in Vector, and even better, is confirmed to be more powerful than Darth Krayt.

All of which is a particularly bad sign for Caedus.

Now this scaling is just as valid as using Kyp to prop up Caedus.

In an actual feats comparison, Unchained Vaylin is clearly more powerful there too.

When?
When is this said?
Quantify any of this.
It's also not the original Muur, but let's ignore this help our arguments.
Not really.
So not at all, really.

Vaylin got shit on with an army at her back. Feats are not on her side.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Unless you think the Outlander is a god, Caedus takes this.

Valkorion wanted to transform the Outlander into his main Voice. Towards this end, Valkorion significantly enhanced the powers of the latter. With originally developed powers and experience in the battlefield, the Outlander wasn't strong enough to contend with Arcann, let alone Vaylin.

Unless you think that Darth Caedus is good enough for Valkorion when even the likes of Revan weren't....

Valkorion tried 300 years to get Revan and failed, rofl, even with the aid of other uber Sith telepaths.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Valkorion tried 300 years to get Revan and failed, rofl, even with the aid of other uber Sith telepaths.

And Valkorion did manage to extract as much information from Revan as he deemed necessary, though it took time.

And all that pressure fractured the mind of Revan, making his split easier later.

Exactly. Valkorion failed to even remake Revan as his mindless servant like he briefly did against Darth Revan, which we know as per the Foundry and SoR was his primary intention. If Valkorion can't even do that, how the hell is he making Revan his Voice?

Revan resisted on his own merit. Revan drew strength from Meetra to counter Valkorion's Force drain. And, again, Valkorion had the Dread Masters in deep meditation on Dromund Kaas for extended periods of time also working.

What? Even after three-hundred years Valkorion was unable to pry from Revan everything. For example, he failed to discover the location of the Foundry and so let Revan free and decided to find it that way, even despite it being a major point of interest for Valkorion.

On the opposite side, Revan was able to pry centuries of knowledge from Valkorion, postpone the conflict for three-centuries, and force Valkorion into signing the Treaty of Coruscant.

No. Because Valkorion and the Dread Masters failed to actually turn Revan into their slave, they resorted to attempting to split Revan in two - that's stated in SoR. Even then, they weren't fully successful until Revan was killed on the Foundry.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Exactly. Valkorion failed to even remake Revan as his mindless servant like he briefly did against Darth Revan, which we know as per the Foundry and SoR was his primary intention. If Valkorion can't even do that, how the hell is he making Revan his Voice?

Valkorion wanted to probe the mind of Revan:

Yet the Emperor wanted more than to leach off his fallen adversary’s power to sustain his own twisted existence. Revan could feel the enemy inside his head. He could sense the unmistakable darkness of the Emperor sifting through his thoughts and memories, seeking, probing, digging for answers.

He wanted information on the Republic and the Jedi. How strong were they? Where were they vulnerable? How much did they know about the Sith and the Emperor himself? He wanted information on Revan. What had happened during his own invasion of the Republic? Why had it failed? How had he freed himself from the Emperor’s control?

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

That doesn't imply an effort to turn Revan into a mindless servant. Valkorion seems to be attempting Drain Knowledge on his subject instead.

Further evidence of probing activity:

Revan's next prison was hidden deep within the dangerous Maelstrom Nebula. Revan would remain there for centuries, his life prolonged by Sith alchemy while the Empror probed his mind for the Republic's weaknesses.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encylcopedia

Additionally, Valkorion never saw in Revan the need to utilize him as his Voice.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan resisted on his own merit. Revan drew strength from Meetra to counter Valkorion's Force drain. And, again, Valkorion had the Dread Masters in deep meditation on Dromund Kaas for extended periods of time also working.

She couldn't speak with him; whatever arcane Sith sorcery the Emperor had used to bind Revan in his cell made that impossible. She doubted Revan was even aware she was there. Yet even though she couldn't communicate with him, she was able to offer aid and support, her power trickling through the energy barrier that surrounded him, a lifeline he could cling to in the dark ocean of his imprisonment.

As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Emphasis mine. Revan's mental defenses are not a standalone actor; they are potent due to his immense strength in the Force. Should his strength in the Force diminish, his mental defenses are likely to falter. Meetra Surik's ghostly presence (and support) ensured that Revan would not fail.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
What? Even after three-hundred years Valkorion was unable to pry from Revan everything. For example, he failed to discover the location of the Foundry and so let Revan free and decided to find it that way, even despite it being a major point of interest for Valkorion.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
On the opposite side, Revan was able to pry centuries of knowledge from Valkorion, postpone the conflict for three-centuries, and force Valkorion into signing the Treaty of Coruscant.

And Revan knew something the Emperor did not. The connection between them went both ways. There were brief moments—times when the Emperor was intently focused on something else—when he could subvert their relationship by planting seeds in the Emperor's thoughts.

He had to be careful, lest his enemy discover what he was doing. But he was able to push and nudge the Emperor's own thoughts and beliefs, subtly manipulating them in ways that could have profound effects. Revan played on the Emperor’s caution and patience, constantly pushing them to the forefront of his enemy’s mind. He augmented his irrational fear of death. At every opportunity he reinforced the idea that invading the Republic was reckless and dangerous.

Taken from Star Wars: Old Republic: Revan

While an impressive feat for Revan, he had to be calculative and subtle in this endeavor.

However, Revan only delayed the inevitable in the grand scheme of things and it isn't even clear if the Emperor was willing to attack the Republic after the events of KoTOR. Perhaps not.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No. Because Valkorion and the Dread Masters failed to actually turn Revan into their slave, they resorted to attempting to split Revan in two - that's stated in SoR. Even then, they weren't fully successful until Revan was killed on the Foundry.

You are also overlooking an important development in the rescue of Revan. Even with Surik in the picture, Revan's strength began to falter eventually and the former reached out to the Jedi to rescue Revan.

That Revan lasted 3 centuries in the conditions he was subjected to, is a hugely impressive showing on his part. However, your assertions are overboard and you missed my point.

1. Valkorion did not attempt to turn Revan into a mindless servant.
2. Surik's support enabled Revan to endure Vitiate's interrogations.
3. Surik orchestrated Revan's release when she realized that Revan could not cope with the conditions he was subjected to much longer.
4. Valkorion never saw in Revan the need to hollow him out in order to convert him into his Voice.

AOTC Kenobi successfully resisted Dooku's telepathy while getting shocked.

While the circumstances were less extreme, the point still stands:

There's no favorable comparison to be drawn for Revan here.

... what?

@ Leg: unnecessarily long post. I'll respond tonight - if I forget send me a PM reminder.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
... what?

@ Leg: unnecessarily long post. I'll respond tonight - if I forget send me a PM reminder.

How ****ing retarded are you? I never once mentioned relativity to Vitiate, ffs.

Revan telepathically influenced Vitiate though, which does open possibilities, but that's completely separate from everything.

Where did he said that Revan is close to Vity?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
How ****ing retarded are you? I never once mentioned relativity to Vitiate, ffs.

Revan telepathically influenced Vitiate though, which does open possibilities, but that's completely separate from everything.

Unless you think that Darth Caedus is good enough for Valkorion when even the likes of Revan weren't....

Also, assuming Legend isn't bsing with the quote he posted, Vitiate wasn't actually actively resisting Revan when Revan influenced him.

I brought it up to mention that "even the likes of Revan" was good enough for Valkorion, lmfao.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I brought it up to mention that "even the likes of Revan" was good enough for Valkorion, lmfao.

Revan not being good enough to be the Voice when a random Voss Mystic and Zakuul Warrior were is pretty retarded.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Revan not being good enough to be the Voice when a random Voss Mystic and Zakuul Warrior were is pretty retarded.

@SWL: What are you even talking about, dude?

Yes, of course Valkorion is probing Revan. I don't know why you wasted time highlighting quotes for that. However, that doesn't preclude the idea that Valkorion foremost wanted Revan to become his personal servant again, like Darth Revan temporarily was. When I used the term "mindless," that was in respect that Revan has no independent mind, not that Valkorion was attempting to outright destroy his mind. Valkorion's goal to hold absolute authority over Revan's mind, which allows him to pry for knowledge but, more importantly, use him as a tool against the Jedi.

Moving to the next argument, this "drain" nonsense has been debunked so many times over. Valkorion and Revan are locked in a mental war, right? Valkorion unfairly tipped the cards in his favor by also draining Revan's power away from him, meaning that, inevitably, Revan will have no strength left to continue fighting. In return, Revan drains Meetra Surik to counter-act. The net result is Revan and Valkorion battling on an equal-playing field (i.e. the original playing field before the drain was introduced) - that is, until Valkorion also brought in the Dread Masters, in which the end result is Revan fighting a unfavorable fight but still getting more out of it.

This leads me to my next point: just as Valkorion was able to pry information from Revan, Revan was able to retrieve "centuries of knowledge" from Valkorion. This is distinctively different than Revan planting seeds in Valkorion - this is an act of Revan outright ripping information from Valkorion. As a result, Valkorion will be resisting - we know this because the converse is stated: Revan actively resisted Valkorion's attempts to do likewise. Point being, despite Valkorion's efforts, Revan was able to successfully get a wealth of information from him.

Then we have the Treaty of Coruscant, which is different from the seeds likewise because it's a sudden action as a response to an abrupt event. In other words, Revan would, logically, have had to outright "manipulate" Valkorion into wanting to initiate the treaty, even though, ultimately, it makes frankly no sense for him to want to propose something like that.

1. Valkorion did not attempt to turn Revan into a mindless servant.

False. We have explicit confirmation from Revan saying he did.

2. Surik's support enabled Revan to endure Vitiate's interrogations.

Misleading - addressed.

3. Surik orchestrated Revan's release when she realized that Revan could not cope with the conditions he was subjected to much longer.

Yeah, after three-hundred years, even despite Valkorion also needing the Dread Masters. That's irrelevant.

4. Valkorion never saw in Revan the need to hollow him out in order to convert him into his Voice.

Valkorion never "saw the need" because he was unable to perform far simpler mental objectives over Revan.

Also, for the love of Christ, don't respond to each of my individual sentences. I have no interest in a protracted debate and, if your response is too long, I just won't respond.

NGL. For all the sh!t he gets as a combatant, Revan's willpower is insane