Sidious Choking Dooku

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
]Even more so, a significantly superior Force user can't even break free from a grip of a significantly inferior one.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Again, take Vader and Sidious or Ventress and Anakin and Obi-Wan.

When did Anakin choke Kenobi?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Syndicate was just mad I had a different opinion than his, although, like I said before, it doesn't really matter.

He meant Ventress choking Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously. That deleted scene with Maul/Sidious is another example of the same thing, btw.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
He meant Ventress choking Anakin and Obi-Wan simultaneously. That deleted scene with Maul/Sidious is another example of the same thing, btw.

So is Ant saying keeping someone choked doesn't mean sh!t in canon?

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Oh? That's interesting. Elaborate please

We have many examples of weaker Force users choking stronger Force users without the latter being capable of breaking through.

Off the top of my head:

> Asajj suspends Anakin, Obi-Wan in a Force choke.
> Savage suspends Dooku, Asajj in a Force choke.
> Maul suspends Sidious in a Force choke.
> Vader suspends Sidious in a Force choke.

Sure, they were "enraged," but I very much doubt such "rage" is the main reason for this. At best, the "rage" makes them attack the enemy quicker.

It very much seems that, if someone is caught off-guard with a Force choke, the prospect of freeing themselves is... unlikely, even if they are more powerful.

Same applies for the Force push. If you're "off-guard," a significantly less powerful Force-user is still capable of pushing a significantly more powerful Force-user.

Actually, the best example I have for this is Kirak Infil'a.

When Vader first tries to choke him, Kirak is prepared for battle and, with strain, resists.

When Kirak is distracted, Vader is able to choke him and Kirak is unable to break free.

Clearly, then, choke has more to do with state of being than state of power.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Actually, the best example I have for this is Kirak Infil'a.

When Vader first tries to choke him, Kirak is looking right at him and, with strain, resists.

When Kirak is distracted, Vader is able to choke him and Kirak is unable to break free.

I'd say so, generally speaking.

For Legends, we're dealing with Lesser Force Shields, Greater Force Shields, instinctual defenses, etc., so that's a whole different game.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For Legends, we're dealing with Lesser Force Shields, Greater Force Shields, instinctual defenses, etc., so that's a whole different game.

Now remembering, I happened to make a post explaining this, in-detail, here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t636160.html

@Ant: Since you essentially ignored the rest of my post in your last response, I'll respond in kind and address the only section that brings up anything new.

I never said it wasn't possible for Dooku to have instinctually resisted Sidious's Force choke. I simply said he wouldn't have ACTIVELY resisted it. As you yourself note in the thread you linked, instinctual barriers are unlikely to have the same potency as active barriers which is pretty relevant when it's already nearly impossible to break out of the Force grip of a superior Force user, even when actively struggling to do so, to begin with.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I never said it wasn't possible for Dooku to have instinctually resisted Sidious's Force choke. I simply said he wouldn't have ACTIVELY resisted it. As you yourself note in the thread you liked, instinctual barriers are unlikely to have the same potency as active barriers which is pretty relevant when it's already nearly impossible to break out of the Force grip of a superior Force user to begin with.

Force choke, in Legends, seems to directly bypass Greater Force Shields (or instinctual shields, a weaker variant of such). There is a specific technique on how to defend against Force choke, so when applied, in conjecture with the already-defending Lesser Force Shield, one presumably breaks free. This, obviously, isn't the case for Canon. The only instance where we have someone defend against a Force choke is ambiguous to the point I have no clue what he's actually doing to resist it. I imagine Dooku's instinctual defense against a Force choke would be the same as his in-play defense, so no, I don't think it would be weaker. Although, like I said, I'm not sure how said defense works, so that's speculation on my behalf. One would assume it's by using the Force to allow air-flow, but that suggests directly pitting your energies against the energies constraining it, which is inconsistent with lesser Force-users doing it to greater ones.

EDIT: Whatever the defense technique is, it's clearly generally ineffective and / or requires to be in a state of readiness when choked.

Whether or not he resisted doesn't matter, imo. The fact of the matter is this isn't applicable to a combat scenario because Dooku wasn't prepared for it. It's not like Sidious could just choke him out in the middle of a fight...But who knows, it's Sidious

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

It very much seems that, if someone is caught off-guard with a Force choke, the prospect of freeing themselves is... unlikely, even if they are more powerful.

Same applies for the Force push. If you're "off-guard," a significantly less powerful Force-user is still capable of pushing a significantly more powerful Force-user.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Force choke, in Legends, seems to directly bypass Greater Force Shields (or instinctual shields, a weaker variant of such). There is a specific technique on how to defend against Force choke, so when applied, in conjecture with the already-defending Lesser Force Shield, one presumably breaks free. This, obviously, isn't the case for Canon. The only instance where we have someone defend against a Force choke is ambiguous to the point I have no clue what he's actually doing to resist it. I imagine Dooku's instinctual defense against a Force choke would be the same as his in-play defense, so no, I don't think it would be weaker. Although, like I said, I'm not sure how said defense works, so that's speculation on my behalf. One would assume it's by using the Force to allow air-flow, but that suggests directly pitting your energies against the energies constraining it, which is inconsistent with lesser Force-users doing it to greater ones.

EDIT: Whatever the defense technique is, it's clearly generally ineffective and / or requires to be in a state of readiness when choked.

K? :/

I'm sure Dooku resisted somewhat; yeah he didn't put his full effort into it but like somebody in real life grabbing you by the throat, you aren't just gonna let it happen but if the guys got good grip strength you'll have a bit of trouble getting his hand off

You used to be a nice guy, Beezlebub.

Originally posted by Rebel95
Whether or not he resisted doesn't matter, imo. The fact of the matter is this isn't applicable to a combat scenario because Dooku wasn't prepared for it. It's not like Sidious could just choke him out in the middle of a fight...But who knows, it's Sidious

Combatants get caught off guard with Force chokes during battle as well.

It's more about whose faster IMO. If you're too fast for your opponent then you're more likely to catch them off guard.

I think Thor has it on par. There isn't much resisting you can do after you've been caught off-guard other than maybe stop it from getting worse. That would explain why Ventress couldn't just snap Kenobi's and Skywalker's necks or Savage do the same to Dooku.

What explanation do we have on that in canon?

Whether or not Sidious can just over-ride a prepared Dooku we don't know from this showing.

Kirak has been choked by Vader but broke free, but he was presumbly ready for the attack.

We can reasonably assume that, if you are choked when taken off-guard, escaping is virtually impossible.

Yep, another example is Kanan pinning the GI catching him off guard in "Rise of the Old Masters", even though we know GI was the more powerful Force user at the time.

Originally posted by Kurk

Whether or not Sidious can just over-ride a prepared Dooku we don't know from this showing.

Well even against Maul and Opress, Sidious kept catching them off guard every time he TK'd them. But again, I think that just means Sidious is faster than they are.

On the other hand he presumably couldn't catch Windu off guard, because they were duelling each other as equals.

Originally posted by ILS
You used to be a nice guy, Beezlebub.

Did I? 🙂