MCU Punisher H2H skill

I have seen a few discussions pop up about this in various places after The Defenders came around. As people who saw the show know, Punisher showed himself to be damn near equal to Daredevil in H2H. I felt like Matt had a slight edge by the end of the series, but that it was small enough that Frank could still give him plenty of trouble. Now, there seems to be two schools of thought on this.

A. Given what we see Matt accomplish in his latest outing, it totally puts Frank's showings into another light, showing just how formidable he actually is. After all, in terms of canonical narrative, Matt had been retired in between DD S2 and The Defenders so, even if he had still been hitting the gym and keeping in shape, there is no inworld reason for him to have had any real actual improvement.

B. Other people are attributing Matt's latest showings to a simple power creep, despite the story narrative. They base this on his fights with Iron Fist (because a lot of people seemed to expect Danny to be >>>>> Matt in skill before the show started, basically "because K'un-Lun"😉, as well as his fights against the various Hand leaders, who he seemed to have an easier time with than Nobu, despite them being older, more experienced and higher ranked. Their reasoning is that they beefed him up in order to be able to contend with the big bads, along with the other Defenders, all of whom have either legit super strength or other powers. And, therefore, these people also believe that current Matt would be well above Punisher as we see him in S2 of DD, and that we can't use Matt's new showings to scale Frank.

What do you all think?

I think its a case of Power Creep for Matt for the most part...

When watching Matt fight Punisher, though, I did feel like Daredevil wasn't going all out, so in my minds eye, that was definitely a significant factor as pertains to explaining why Punisher fought him so well...

Afterall I can remember atleast one instance of Daredevil subduing Punisher rather easily...

I do feel there was a bit of a power creep involved. I mean I would expect Murakami and the other Fingers to be above the likes of their henchman, even their highest ranking henchman. After all, if the Pompeii thing is legit, the Fingers were literally around for about 2000 years.

Yet, at the same time, it is the most nonsensical power creep in the MCU to date IMO, considering he'd literally spent months not being Daredevil at that point. If anything, he should be a little bit rusty. Or, assuming he didn't completely stop being active and still trained to keep in shape, around his previous levels.

Which is why I can see merit to both sides. On the one side of things, from a narrative point of view, Matt shouldn't be any better than when he fought Frank. But on the other side, based on the implied caliber of the opponents he fought in Defenders, and how he did against them, he did get a power creep.

Frank killed like 10 guys in a single prison fight. His H2H skills were always good, but they're not quite DD level.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Frank killed like 10 guys in a single prison fight. His H2H skills were always good, but they're not quite DD level.

Well, I don't think anyone questions whether Punisher is good at H2H. And I think most people also agree that Matt slightly edged him out in DD s2. But now the question basically becomes how he stacks up compared to Iron Fist, the Fingers of the Hand etc.

As I said, if we assume power creep, then Matt has comfortably surpassed Frank at this point. But if we go by the show narrative, Punisher is seemingly at least in the same ballpark as centuries old ninjas and such.

Well, DD was sorta retired, so how could he have improved? If anything he should be rusty in Defenders.

Yet Defenders has his best feats.

Outfighting BS Elektra and losing because he kept freezing and still believing in her.
Casually outfighting Danny.
Etc...

Daredevil is essentially the best fighter in Defenders period. It's lucky for the Hand and everyone else his only powers are radar.

Punisher going by direct comparisons can at least mess Danny up in a good fight.

When did he casually out fight Danny? I remember they looked more or less equal until the others stepped in.

I don't know about casually outfight, but nearly everyone I have spoken to agreed that Matt looked decidedly better during their brief bout. For one thing, he landed noticeably more hits than Danny did, and that's including the two cheapshots Danny threw. His hits also seemed to rock Danny a bit (he sent him stumbling once or twice, and knocked his ass to the ground), whereas Matt was unfazed by the hits Danny actually managed to land.

And Matt being a bit better than Danny was not only supported by other showings as well (like the various fights against Elektra), but by interviews with the cast too, when they were asked how the Defenders rank in power level. Matt was described as the least powerful (because he lacks super strength or chi attacks) but the most skilled of the four.

Is this the fight you are talking about?

YouTube video

Originally posted by Surtur
Is this the fight you are talking about?

YouTube video

Yeah. Matt looked just a bit better during that bout than Danny did. And, like I said, the notion that Matt is a bit above Danny in pure H2H skill is also supported by other showings, as well as comments by the cast.

But yeah, not only does Matt land more hits, he seemed to be controlling the fight overall. He had Danny on the back foot for most of it, and was managing the distance. And when Danny tries to put Matt on the defensive at around the 1:14 mark, it doesn't take Matt long to shift things around and put Danny on the back foot again.

Punisher beats Matt in a straight up forum fight

I think Frank is stronger and tougher than Daredevil, just not as skilled or as fast. But with those advantages in each of their corners, they end up being near equal one on one.

There will be things that Daredevil can do better. For example, I think Daredevil would have gone through that prison fight with less hits, considering that his skill and speed will allow him to duck and block hits more easily. He would at least have taken out the prisoners in a cleaner manner.

However, I don't think he could have gone through the same beating Frank took, have his hands handcuffed and still take the fight to Kingpin like Frank did. Nor do I think he would have handled getting tortured as well as Frank did.

Not so sure about that last bit with Fisk, seeing as Matt already did do something kind of similar in S1 of DD, where he fought Nobu and got absolutely shredded, then got into a fight with Fisk and smashed through a desk IIRC, and then still dropped one of Fisk's goons, escaped and managed to make it back to his apartment. Or when he fought through a group of Russian gangsters while already suffering from multiple lacerations and a particularly deep stab wound, a damaged lung, multiple fractured ribs and a probable concussion (at least according to Claire).

But anyway, this isn't really a Daredevil vs Punisher discussion. It's a discussion about how people think Frank would fair in H2H against the various people Matt fought in The Defenders.