PoD Bane runs the Vanilla TOR Gauntlet

Originally posted by SunRazer
Well, Baras is one of the most powerful Lords in the Sith Empire and "nearly indestructible" per Vowrawn, another Dark Councillor.

Wrath II didn't seem to have any issues sticking a lightsaber in his gut.

He managed to fool the Council into at least considering the notion of him being the Emperor's Voice, and given that Voices typically wield the power of the Emperor that's pretty impressive.

Vitiate has to directly take control of the Voice for it to wield his power, IIRC.

In combat, there's him holding off Angral and Satele's lightsaber assaults (he doesn't fight them long enough for a conclusive outcome, but it's basically a stalemate),

If Baras can at best stalemate Satele, who got fisted by Malgus twice, I don't see much hope for him against Bane in a duel. The latter already replicated Satele's blitzing of Sith, and matches Hope Malgus' hype by driving back the greatest duelist of his time (aside from Bane himself) in Kas'im.

one-shotting Angral with Lightning, and him being knifed in the back by a Sith assassin and then proceeding to kill said assassin with a burst of Lightning. In the game, he also senses the precise coordinates of his lightsaber from across the galaxy in a few moments.

Lord Kaan conceded he was "no match" for Bane in a Force fight, implying a vast if not a near stomp tier disparity. Kaan's feats far eclipse those of Angral's. Bane ticks the Force box too.

A few good durability feats like being smashed into crystals with TK to no effect, and he shakes his room when he gets enraged in the game.

Bane's vast inferior in Kopecz endured this:

Bane temple busting is also a far greater feat than shaking a room.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
But to prove such a bold claim to the Dark Council, the Wrath battles Darth Baras in a fierce duel. The Wrath emerges triumphant, striking down the ruined and seething Darth Baras.

Compared to the Nox vs Thanaton fight, which was described as a slaughter.

Fierce =/= close

Eh, I interpret that as "close, when vs Thanaton it said Nox "dominated" him, IIRC.

Originally posted by Azronger

Bane's vast inferior in Kopecz endured this:

Bane temple busting is also a far greater feat than shaking a room.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Eh, I interpret that as "close, when vs Thanaton it said Nox "dominated" him, IIRC.

You must be speaking some alien language where "fierce" translates to "close." Too bad TORE's written and meant to be interpreted in English, though.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Which doesn't means Bane can endure that, yeah.

Not necessarily, no, but Bane's ways been described as an extremely durable man and several league beyond Kopecz in the Force, which definitely helps you endure more pain.

Originally posted by Azronger
Not necessarily, no, but Bane's ways been described as an extremely durable man and several league beyond Kopecz in the Force, which definitely helps you endure more pain.

Originally posted by Ursumeles
Obviously Bane is durable, and more durable than Baras as well, but you can't use feats from someone else, durability wise. For example, Maul has durability feats that easily outclass Mace/Dooku's, and Caedus has better durability feats than Luke - and we all know how they compare in power.

While I don't think Maul's durability feats exceed Dooku's, the other examples work fine. Point taken.

Originally posted by Azronger
Wrath II didn't seem to have any issues sticking a lightsaber in his gut.

That's just good for the Wrath.

Vitiate has to directly take control of the Voice for it to wield his power, IIRC.

Obviously. Vitiate has to take control of a host in order for them to become a Voice in the first place. The idea is that Baras managed to fool some of the Dark Council into believing he was a Voice (ie. he was Vitiate in Baras' body).

If Baras can at best stalemate Satele, who got fisted by Malgus twice, I don't see much hope for him against Bane in a duel. The latter already replicated Satele's blitzing of Sith, and matches Hope Malgus' hype by driving back the greatest duelist of his time (aside from Bane himself) in Kas'im.

IIRC, he only fought Satele defensively and never tried to attack her. It was too brief to say much other than the fact that he could stop her from beating him in that short span of time.

Lord Kaan conceded he was "no match" for Bane in a Force fight, implying a vast if not a near stomp tier disparity. Kaan's feats far eclipse those of Angral's. Bane ticks the Force box too.

Being "no match" doesn't denote a stomp at all. It means, quite literally, that party X is not a match (ie. an equal) for party Y. All it says is that Y > X, not that Y would stomp X.

Bane's vast inferior in Kopecz endured this:

Yes, but the difference is he was dying at this point and gets stomped by Farfalla afterward. Baras shrugged it off and instantly killed his assassin. There's nothing to compare about the two feats.

Bane temple busting is also a far greater feat than shaking a room.

Sure it is, but that was something he did by palpably drawing on a dizzyingly powerful nexus as Kas'im talked and unleashing a gesture-directed Force Wave. Baras was just angry. Again, no real point of comparison.

Originally posted by SunRazer
That's just good for the Wrath.

You missed the point. I was disproving his "indestructible" quote by citing a scene where he gets killed by a common lightsaber stab. Vowrawn was either mistaken or using hyperbole. I wasn't talking about either characters' skill level.

Obviously. Vitiate has to take control of a host in order for them to become a Voice in the first place. The idea is that Baras managed to fool some of the Dark Council into believing he was a Voice (ie. he was Vitiate in Baras' body).

And what is this supposed to, in actuality, prove? That Baras was comparable to Vitiate in power?

IIRC, he only fought Satele defensively and never tried to attack her. It was too brief to say much other than the fact that he could stop her from beating him in that short span of time.

So why even mention it in the first place if it can't be properly used to assess Baras? So now he has no dueling feats that'd allow him to stand up to Bane, then?

Being "no match" doesn't denote a stomp at all. It means, quite literally, that party X is not a match (ie. an equal) for party Y. All it says is that Y > X, not that Y would stomp X.

Yes, but the difference is he was dying at this point and gets stomped by Farfalla afterward. Baras shrugged it off and instantly killed his assassin. There's nothing to compare about the two feats.

Can you post Baras' feat?

Sure it is, but that was something he did by palpably drawing on a dizzyingly powerful nexus as Kas'im talked and unleashing a gesture-directed Force Wave. Baras was just angry. Again, no real point of comparison.

Yeah, I doubt the nexus actually contributed much at all to his feat.

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Bane watched the spectacle of the Temple's implosion from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs. Billowing clouds of dust rolled out from the wreckage and down the stairs toward him.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Still twirling his light-saber, Bane thrust his empty hand out before him, palm extended as he unleashed the Force in a wave of concussive power at the woman fleeing to his left. The wave cut a swath of devastation through the camp. Tents were uprooted from the ground, their material torn and shredded. Wooden supply crates exploded into kindling the shattered contents spraying out in a shower of splintered shrapnel.

The Force wave slammed into the woman's back, pulverizing her spine and snapping her neck as it drove her facedown into the dirt and pinned her against the ground. Her corpse twitched once, then went forever still.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two

^ On neutral ground, Bane's casual Force pushes are powerful enough to pulverize a human's spine. Not quite the same as what it could've done to Kas'im had he been a non-Force user, but given the actually charged the latter attack, I'd say standard Bane and Lehon-amped Bane aren't that far off at all.

Down at 2, may as well have him fight Raskta Lsu, who would've killed Bane if not for his armor.

Originally posted by Azronger

^ On neutral ground, Bane's casual Force pushes are powerful enough to pulverize a human's spine. Not quite the same as what it could've done to Kas'im had he been a non-Force user, but given the actually charged the latter attack, I'd say standard Bane and Lehon-amped Bane aren't that far off at all.

Agreed with the rest of your post, but I disagree with this. The logic you are using is pretty flawed (in this instance).

1. The damage he would have done to Kas'im is far greater than the damage he did to the woman. Shattering every single bone in the body and pulverizing the flesh and organs into a mass of pulpy liquid is simply vastly, vastly better than just pulverizing a human's spine. The latter is just a small "pipe"( if you will) of cartilage and bones. In the former instance, he would be literally obliterating all the bones and organs in the entire body.

There is no comparison to be made between the two. To say that there is a big difference is a big understatement.

2. Kas'im, being a force user( and of high note in the era), has innate force augmentation/durability which prevents exactly this sort of thing from damaging the body too much. Now consider, even his innate augmentation wouldn't have been enough for Bane to turn him into a mass of pulpy liquid.

Kas'im's advantage is infinitely greater than that of the woman, who literally has no innate defense against this sort of thing. And the damage he wrought upon the woman was much, much lesser than what he would have done to Kas'im.

Quite sorry, but the nexus has amped him to levels that are orders of magnitude higher than his normal self. A simple charged up attack, which was charged in the order of seconds anyways, isn't going to change that.

And again, I don't see a logic to your point against SunRazer. If you actually think that the charging up made a big difference, then again, there is nothing much left to discuss. The charging up was clearly circumstantial and wouldn't happen in a fight where the opponent knew what he was doing, a fight without PIS in other words.

If the charging up doesn't make a big difference( my opinion, as he charged it in the order of seconds, not minutes or weeks or whatever), then as the two feats are astronomically different in their magnitude, the nexus plays the part of amping Bane, tremendously.

Either way, the feat is as invalid as the sun is plasma.

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
Agreed with the rest of your post, but I disagree with this. The logic you are using is pretty flawed (in this instance).

1. The damage he would have done to Kas'im is far greater than the damage he did to the woman. Shattering every single bone in the body and pulverizing the flesh and organs into a mass of pulpy liquid is simply vastly, vastly better than just pulverizing a human's spine. The latter is just a small "pipe"( if you will) of cartilage and bones. In the former instance, he would be literally obliterating all the bones and organs in the entire body.

There is no comparison to be made between the two. To say that there is a big difference is a big understatement.

Can you do the calcs?

2. Kas'im, being a force user( and of high note in the era), has innate force augmentation/durability which prevents exactly this sort of thing from damaging the body too much. Now consider, even his innate augmentation wouldn't have been enough for Bane to turn him into a mass of pulpy liquid.

Kas'im's advantage is infinitely greater than that of the woman, who literally has no innate defense against this sort of thing. And the damage he wrought upon the woman was much, much lesser than what he would have done to Kas'im.

Quite sorry, but the nexus has amped him to levels that are orders of magnitude higher than his normal self. A simple charged up attack, which was charged in the order of seconds anyways, isn't going to change that.

And again, I don't see a logic to your point against SunRazer. If you actually think that the charging up made a big difference, then again, there is nothing much left to discuss. The charging up was clearly circumstantial and wouldn't happen in a fight where the opponent knew what he was doing, a fight without PIS in other words.

If the charging up doesn't make a big difference( my opinion, as he charged it in the order of seconds, not minutes or weeks or whatever), then as the two feats are astronomically different in their magnitude, the nexus plays the part of amping Bane, tremendously.

Either way, the feat is as invalid as the sun is plasma.

Battling through the halls and corridors, the combatants rounded a corner to bring them inside to the Rakatan Temple's only entrance. The wide archway, and the small landing beyond with the wide staircase, leading back down to the ground mearly twenty meters below.

In the instant it took Kas'im to recognize where they were, and realize that his opponent might still escape, Bane thrust out with the Force. He knocked the Twi'lek off-balance for a brief second, then backflipped out of the archaway and onto the landing.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

^ Should've used this example instead. Here a casual Force push on Lehon didn't do even a fraction of the damage a charged attack did. So yes, the charging is what made the difference.

And I wouldn't simply dismiss it as circumstantial. Bane charged it during Kas'im's speech which lasted maybe like ten(?) seconds. Looking at the fight between Baras and the Wrath, the former took plenty of pauses in combat to restore his stamina, and even at the end attempted a Force Lightning Storm, which definitely requires charging. Bane wins regardless of what tactic Baras tries.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Down at 2, may as well have him fight Raskta Lsu, who would've killed Bane if not for his armor.

Why do you think he stops so early at Leneer?

Leneer has a more than comparable feat to Lsu's speed which was surpassing Orbalisk Bane's own, and has faced a better combatant in Darth Malgus, although she lost in the end.

Oh, and Az, for some reason you're being dense, but Vowrawn states he is nearly indestructible, not actually indestructible.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Leneer has a more than comparable feat to Lsu's speed which was surpassing Orbalisk Bane's own, and has faced a better combatant in Darth Malgus, although she lost in the end.

Quote for the speed feat? And why do you think Malgus is better than Bane?

Oh, and Az, for some reason you're being dense, but Vowrawn states he is nearly indestructible, not actually indestructible.

Lol, worthless accolade anyway

Aryn did not bother to respond. She dwelled in the Force, floated in and on the warm network of lines that connected all things, one to another. Her consciousness expanded to see and feel everything near her. She focused on her perception of the passage of time, first on how it felt as she moved through it, then on spreading it, stretching it, until she could linger in a millisecond as if it were a moment, then a minute. To Zeerid it would appear that she were a blur of motion, existing simultaneously in multiple places. To her, it felt as if the universe around her had stilled. She smiled, seeing the moments that hung before her, each millisecond a long moment in which she could think, in which she could act. The effort taxed her, and she knew she could not maintain it for long.

"Watch the scanner," Zeerid said, his words a lifetime in the utterance.

She did not watch the scanner. Her body could react faster than any machine. Instead she watched the viewscreen. The Imperial ships had finished their hydrogen skim and now maneuvered into a formation suitable for a hyperspace jump, the supply ships within the ring of the frigate escort.

She tensed.

"They're forming up," Zeerid said. The waves of his tension crashed against her but she dammed them off, did not allow them to disrupt her focus.

She watched, waited, waited. . .

As one, the Imperial ships began to stretch in her perception. For a nanosecond, all of them seemed to stretch to infinity, their rear engines a hundred thousand kilometers off Fatman's bow, their forms reaching across and through an incomprehensible distance.
- Decieved

She gets much more powerful after this, too.

Malgus simply has better feats than PoD Bane.

Originally posted by Azronger
Can you do the calcs?

Battling through the halls and corridors, the combatants rounded a corner to bring them inside to the Rakatan Temple's only entrance. The wide archway, and the small landing beyond with the wide staircase, leading back down to the ground mearly twenty meters below.

In the instant it took Kas'im to recognize where they were, and realize that his opponent might still escape, Bane thrust out with the Force. He knocked the Twi'lek off-balance for a brief second, then backflipped out of the archaway and onto the landing.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

^ Should've used this example instead. Here a casual Force push on Lehon didn't do even a fraction of the damage a charged attack did. So yes, the charging is what made the difference.

And I wouldn't simply dismiss it as circumstantial. Bane charged it during Kas'im's speech which lasted maybe like ten(?) seconds. Looking at the fight between Baras and the Wrath, the former took plenty of pauses in combat to restore his stamina, and even at the end attempted a Force Lightning Storm, which definitely requires charging. Bane wins regardless of what tactic Baras tries.

1. No need to do calculations on this. Simple logic should be enough.

2. Not especially. The "casual force push" you mention was a resort by Bane when he was almost floundering in his duel with Kas'im. Lightsaber blades all over him, I heavily doubt he'd even use a fraction of the energy he normally could.

Not remotely comparable to a situation where he has the leisure to let loose with a force blast, as and when he likes.

Also, you are clearly aware that it is extremely difficult to gather any kind of power in the force when your opponent is hammering at you with their lightsaber blades and you are outmatched, right? It is the primary reason so many Jedi, in the order of hundreds, fell to Grevious's blades.

And I quite doubt it was 10 seconds. He spoke words which, in the novel, amount to a single line( in some cases, just over it). Don't think it will take anything more than half the time you mention to say that.

Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
1. No need to do calculations on this. Simple logic should be enough.

I am not contesting that turning a body to pulp is significantly better than simply pulverizing a spine, but I do need calcs for me to accept that it is so far better that the two can't be compared at all.

2. Not especially. The "casual force push" you mention was a resort by Bane when he was almost floundering in his duel with Kas'im. Lightsaber blades all over him, I heavily doubt he'd even use a fraction of the energy he normally could.

Not remotely comparable to a situation where he has the leisure to let loose with a force blast, as and when he likes.

Also, you are clearly aware that it is extremely difficult to gather any kind of power in the force when your opponent is hammering at you with their lightsaber blades and you are outmatched, right? It is the primary reason so many Jedi, in the order of hundreds, fell to Grevious's blades.

You're merely reinforcing my point. If a leeway push, that according to you didn't "even use a fraction of the energy he normally could," on Lehon had no effect on Kas'im or the surroundings, then the nexus amp was negligible. Doing the same in a neutral environment would have made little difference in regards to the damage done to the surroundings - or more appropriately, the lack of it.

In a situation where Bane could simply "let loose with a Force blast as and when he likes," non-amped, he caused much more widespread destruction with his power. Had the nexus "amped him to levels that are orders of magnitude higher than his normal self," even an attack with a fraction of the power of a standard push would have caused at least as much devastation as his regural non-amped blast, if not more.

And I quite doubt it was 10 seconds. He spoke words which, in the novel, amount to a single line( in some cases, just over it). Don't think it will take anything more than half the time you mention to say that.

So you concede Bane takes even less time to gather that much power? Good.

Aryn did not bother to respond. She dwelled in the Force, floated in and on the warm network of lines that connected all things, one to another. Her consciousness expanded to see and feel everything near her. She focused on her perception of the passage of time, first on how it felt as she moved through it, then on spreading it, stretching it, until she could linger in a millisecond as if it were a moment, then a minute. To Zeerid it would appear that she were a blur of motion, existing simultaneously in multiple places. To her, it felt as if the universe around her had stilled. She smiled, seeing the moments that hung before her, each millisecond a long moment in which she could think, in which she could act. The effort taxed her, and she knew she could not maintain it for long.

The Old Republic: Deceived

He channeled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped for the rest of the world. In the blink of an eye he knocked the saber from Sirak's hand, sliced down to shatter his forearm, then spun through and brought his saber crashing into his opponent's lower leg. It splintered under the impact and Sirak screamed as a shard of gleaming white bone sliced through muscle, sinew, and finally skin.

For an instant none of the spectators was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

A non-Force user could at least somewhat follow Aryn's movements; Bane was completely untraceable to trained Sith acolytes. Doesn't seem like he's stopping at two if this is the best Leneer's got going for her.