Confirmation on Anakin > Sidious / Yoda

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Oh?

So we have his world (LucasFilm) with him as Gospel, and then LFL with him as Gospel.

How that works is explained here: http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanon2.html

Or, if you just want a chart:

"Super-Duper" just being an arbitrary phrase by the creator of the blog, of course.

It's amusing when people use the other sentences in that quote to try and argue Lucas's word doesn't mean sh!t for the EU while ignoring the sentences I just quoted.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Oh?

DB, refer to the link I posted, which explains essentially everything.

Originally posted by darthbane77
"as consistent with mine as possible", meaning there are discrepancies, and nothing is kept perfect. Plus, I don't think he was referring to EVERYTHING being consistent, as much as just referring to the major story elements.

I'll repeat:

Originally posted by Rockydonovang

Arguing that an absence of evidence is evidence of absence is an argument from ignorance. As we have evidence saying Anakin is Yoda level, you need to provide a reason he isn't yoda level aside from, "he don't got no feats!"

Things are getting heated up in here.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Then make a case that the lore contradicts Lucas again.

I'll repeat:

Originally posted by darthbane77
I'm busy-ish at the moment, so I can't type any real long explanations right now. But if you're willing, I can send you my reasoning in a PM at some point.

Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Yea, I'll pass

Originally posted by darthbane77
Lack of willingness to hear the opinions of others without shitting on them is what makes KMC a cancerous cesspool. Shouldn't be surprised you're a happy contributor to that.

Maybe chill a bit about debating fictional characters?

Originally posted by quanchi112

Originally posted by quanchi112

Here's a quote from Nick Gillard in 2011. In this, he's only using a eight tier system (removed tier ten and one and then scaled down, seemingly), but the point is obvious:

"There’s up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it’s a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment.” Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. “I’ve got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn’t really exist,” says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps. “It’s only a writing tool,” he says, “but it gives you the edge over it just being a fight."

In the context of the ten tier scale, Anakin is nine bordering ten.

Oh my...

1)
Nick Gillard's personal opinion means nothing. If it is not directly put into a canon source, it is not canon, especially not on the basis of "George Lucas maybe did agree with it."

2)
Even assuming it were credible, the problem would be that - according to his own words - Lucas never cared about anything outside the movies. Thus everything appearing in the EU later would never be factored into this kind of judgement anyway, making it totally useless for in the context of this forum.

3)
In the context of what ten tier scale?

4)
Are you just nuts?
Based on that system, Mace is equal to Yoda, which is obviously not the case. And the "perfect warrior" Anakin gets his ass handed to him by an opponent two tiers below him.

When making references to a "dark side Anakin", Gillard is obviously referring to Anakin in perfect control of his abilities, which we see at the end of his duel with Dooku and the raid on the Jedi Temple in RotS. Not the guy that we see in action on a daily basis and most certainly not the emotionally unstable punk we see losing to Kenobi.

So one might ask, what the point of this thread is? To establish that "Zonakin" might take Sidious, Yoda or Mace down? Who would have guessed...? 🙄

Originally posted by Nai
Oh my...

My thoughts exactly.

1)
Nick Gillard's personal opinion means nothing. If it is not directly put into a canon source, it is not canon, especially not on the basis of "George Lucas maybe did agree with it."

Lucas' own opinions are canonical. The tier system reflects Lucas' opinions since he created the system.

2)
Even assuming it were credible, the problem would be that - according to his own words - Lucas never cared about anything outside the movies. Thus everything appearing in the EU later would never be factored into this kind of judgement anyway, making it totally useless for in the context of this forum.

Lucas' word is absolute in EU continuity (regulated by Licensing) regardless.

3)
In the context of what ten tier scale?

The one that Lucas made.

4)
Are you just nuts?
Based on that system, Mace is equal to Yoda, which is obviously not the case.

Gillard has clarified Mace is 8 bordering 9 in another interview - not a straight 9 like Yoda.

And the "perfect warrior" Anakin gets his ass handed to him by an opponent two tiers below him.

Addressed by Gillard in MSW.

When making references to a "dark side Anakin", Gillard is obviously referring to Anakin in perfect control of his abilities, which we see at the end of his duel with Dooku and the raid on the Jedi Temple in RotS. Not the guy that we see in action on a daily basis and most certainly not the emotionally unstable punk we see losing to Kenobi.

No shit, Sherlock. Is that why you're bitching? Rest assured, no one thinks Mustafar Anakin can beat Sidious.

Who would have guessed...? 🙄

Not as many people as you'd think. 🙄

Gillard keeps fooking changing how this shitty tier system even works! How can you put any level of believability in a system that can't decide whether 8 is a cheat tier or 9 is, is beyond me, and then there's the absence of tier 10 which apparently also fooking exists.

Originally posted by Nai
Oh my...

1)
Nick Gillard's personal opinion means nothing. If it is not directly put into a canon source, it is not canon, especially not on the basis of "George Lucas maybe did agree with it."

2)
Even assuming it were credible, the problem would be that - according to his own words - Lucas never cared about anything outside the movies. Thus everything appearing in the EU later would never be factored into this kind of judgement anyway, making it totally useless for in the context of this forum.

3)
In the context of what ten tier scale?

4)
Are you just nuts?
Based on that system, Mace is equal to Yoda, which is obviously not the case. And the "perfect warrior" Anakin gets his ass handed to him by an opponent two tiers below him.

When making references to a "dark side Anakin", Gillard is obviously referring to Anakin in perfect control of his abilities, which we see at the end of his duel with Dooku and the raid on the Jedi Temple in RotS. Not the guy that we see in action on a daily basis and most certainly not the emotionally unstable punk we see losing to Kenobi.

So one might ask, what the point of this thread is? To establish that "Zonakin" might take Sidious, Yoda or Mace down? Who would have guessed...? 🙄

You said it way better than I did, lol. Agree, 100%

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lucas' own opinions are canonical. The tier system reflects Lucas' opinions since he created the system.

Nope. The "tier system" was created by Nick Gillard and nobody else. You may want to go rewatch the Revenge of the Sith DVD commentary/extras for this. Essentially, when it comes to fights, Lucas input comes down to "they fight" and the desired result. He doesn't concern himself with anything else.

As far as Lucas is concerned, you can find his take on the issue on p. 204 of "The Making of Revenge of the Sith", which still says: ""You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor[...]". Note the distinguished absense of Anakin from that statement.

Lucas' word is absolute in EU continuity (regulated by Licensing) regardless.

Not any longer, given how he sold everything to Disney. Furthermore, the EU has been explicitly created to be outside the lines of what Lucas controls and cares about. And if Lucas word was absolute, Anakin got his scar by slipping in the bathtub (Lucas, RotS commentary). Not that it matters: Those words are not coming from Lucas. D'uh.

The one that Lucas made.

Except: He never made one. Did he? Where is it?

Gillard has clarified Mace is 8 bordering 9 in another interview - not a straight 9 like Yoda.

So Gillard happily contradicts himself on the issue? Why then put any faith in stuff he says?

Addressed by Gillard in MSW.

Good that nobody cares what Nick Gillard has to say. I mean, seriously:

Click me

The guy denied the existence of lightsaber forms as a whole and keeps doing so. He denied the existence of Vaapad. Of course, from his perspective, it's all just "levels" and he designed them all. But canon has established far different takes on the issue, hence why his personal take on the issue means jack shit.

No shit, Sherlock. Is that why you're bitching? Rest assured, no one thinks Mustafar Anakin can beat Sidious.

No. I'm "bitching" because you attempt to sell the personal ideas of a stunt-coordinator as god (or Lucas) given fact, which they aren't. Gillard's only expertise on the issue is his work for the movies. He doesn't know the lightsaber forms. He doesn't know the EU. He doesn't know anything and he keeps contradicting himself, established canon and - on the issue at hand - George Lucas himself (see quote above).

Not as many people as you'd think. 🙄

Oh. Apparently, you don't know what I think, since I generally assume, that common sense, logic and reasoning are pretty much absent from this place, every time I leave it alone. 🙄

As far as Lucas is concerned, you can find his take on the issue on p. 204 of "The Making of Revenge of the Sith", which still says: ""You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor[...]" Note the distinguished absense of Anakin from that statement.

>"distinguished absence"
>yfw the next sentence is about how Anakin would have killed the Emperor if it weren't for Obi-Wan

While we're on the topic of tiers, I'd put Gillard's credibility at about the Supershadow tier. So roughly equal to George Lucas.

Anakin > Yoda/Sidious