Darth Malgus vs Count Dooku

(Grey - addressed you on last page)

Originally posted by Kurk
So Dooku was able to meet the attacks. He was able to contend with Anakin's strength for a limited period of time. In other words, had he had an infinite reserve of force energy, he would have been able to continue to survive. He was not instantly over-powered and defeated like Sidious did to Maul or Savage.

No. Dooku did not not have the physical strength to meet Anakin's attacks, so he had to use an unnaturally large amount of Force reserves simply to fend him off. This depleted Dooku.

There was never an instance where Dooku mustered enough strength to match full-strength Anakin's blows, even despite the Force reserves being called upon.

I'm not even going to bother this infinite resource nonsense, because any character with infinite resources would be operating far above their standard level in all respects.

Kurk, I like you obviously, but I have no clue how many times I have to clarify and correct you regarding this fight. There is nothing good for Dooku to take out of it.

What makes Anakin faster than Dooku?

They were stalemating in Dark Disciple, were they not? Anakin only grows vastly in power from then and Revenge of the Sith thanks to the Outer Rim Sieges.

Or, just going off the Revenge of the Sith novel, the book constantly has Anakin "appearing out of no-where," "staying right on top of him," being "all over him," and other strong words to emphasize Anakin's speed in the confrontation.

Of course, the distinction in speed is not as pronounced as strength, but that's because Anakin is a strength-based fighter, but I'd say it's logical to deduce Anakin at least has an edge in speed, no?

>No, because I'm not.

Yes. You are.

>There is no indication Dooku "bad position" changed the outcome of the situation compared to if he was in a good situation, so no. That's wishful thinking, at best.

I would hardly call having barely come off a sudden combined attack after being lulled by two holding back opponents which were already tiring him, not to mention Skywalker was already there grounded while Dooku had just come off a desperate leap. Hardly fair conditions.

>This is made clear that this is not a one-off because Dooku did not adapt or adjust to Skywalker's style - he simply retreated and prayed to simply fend him off.

Outright false

"He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength"

Dooku actively moved to deflections instead of outright blocks.

Not to mention.

"He dropped low and spun into another reverse anklesweep— the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility—that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away"

Dooku was able to throw a counter towards Skywalker that in a 1v1 likely would have completely reversed to momentum of the fight and allowed him to regain the initiative.

>If Dooku then proceeded to handle Skywalker fine, you'd have a point, but he only got increasingly worse-off, so no.

Due to the cumulative exhaustion from the battle. Had it started out as a clean 1v1 I doubt this would be the case.

How the heck do you format on this site

I would hardly call having barely come off a sudden combined attack after being lulled by two holding back opponents which were already tiring him, not to mention Skywalker was already there grounded while Dooku had just come off a desperate leap. Hardly fair conditions.

Your arguing matters the text doesn't state.

The text does not state that Dooku was tiring from the initial engagement.

The text does not state that Dooku's situation gave him an unfair advantage.

Demonstrate a situation where, under fair conditions, Dooku met Anakin's strength head-on.

Dun Moch aside, he never does.

Outright false

The ****?

w"He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength"

Dooku actively moved to deflections instead of outright blocks.

Not to mention.

You're completely misunderstanding me.

Dooku never adjusts or adapts to the situation in a meaningful way - a way that he can actually win the fight. His entire strategy is simply prolonging for the fight by retreating and deflecting. The one kick aside, there are no counter-offensives launched by Dooku because he's wholly incapable of fighting Anakin head-on. Thus, as I said, Dooku's mindset was to "retreat and pray," for he had no prospect of victory.

"He dropped low and spun into another reverse anklesweep— the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility—that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away"

Dooku was able to throw a counter towards Skywalker that in a 1v1 likely would have completely reversed to momentum of the fight and allowed him to regain the initiative.

Your red text is correct - Dooku was indeed able to land a kick on Anakin.

Your blue text... well your blue text just comes from no where.

No, Dooku would not have regained the initiative. That is, frankly, impossible. Anakin's strength is such that Dooku cannot withstand it head-on. If Dooku clashes against Anakin's blade, he will either get bent over (like the first three strikes) or be forced to yield ground. Besides, Anakin's an inherently aggressive fighter. There's no prospect Dooku is just going to be capable of launching a continuous offensive without Anakin trading blows with Dooku in return. In many respects, Anakin's defense is an offensive. Of course, the moment Anakin does launch said offensive, the battle will shift back into Anakin's favor as Dooku gives ground.

Due to the cumulative exhaustion from the battle. Had it started out as a clean 1v1 I doubt this would be the case.

I never understand how people can come to this conclusion - a conclusion so wildly different from the implications and statements of the text.

No, Dooku would not have fared better. We see Dooku replenish himself and renew battle with Anakin, yet Dooku is still immediately forced into retreat. Besides, the fight was essentially a clean 1v1. Dooku was toying with the group before. I very much doubt much energy was wasted - at least not more so than the team with their acrobatics and whatnot. Directly thereafter, the time between the duo revealing their true forms and Dooku facing off against Anakin is, at best, a five to ten second event.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

This is made clear that this is not a one-off because Dooku did not adapt or adjust to Skywalker's style - he simply retreated and prayed to simply fend him off.

If Dooku then proceeded to handle Skywalker fine, you'd have a point, but he only got increasingly worse-off, so no.

Dooku turned the fight back to his favor after dun moching Anakin. What does that say about Anakin when his performance suffers at the drop of an insult? Either he has the most fragile self-esteem ever, or that performance against Dooku was an out of the ordinary "boost", if you will, requiring the utmost mental concentration. This is similar to Windu's performance against Sidious in that same novel.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Certainly debatable. Here we have pre-peak-Invisible Hand Anakin nearly accomplishing it, and then Anakin has two major powerboosts.

It's on the table, at the very least, but nonetheless not a position I'm arguing here.

Invisible hand performance is the most prime you're getting out of jedi Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by Kurk
Dooku turned the fight back to his favor after dun moching Anakin. What does that say about Anakin when his performance suffers at the drop of an insult? Either he has the most fragile self-esteem ever, or that performance against Dooku was an out of the ordinary "boost", if you will, requiring the utmost mental concentration. This is similar to Windu's performance against Sidious in that same novel.

How many different angles do you try to play?

No. Throughout that entire fight, Anakin was explicitly restraining himself due to a deep rooted fear of what would happen if he embraces his anger.

The last time Anakin did that, he slaughtered the Tusken village, which was a pivotal moment for the character.

Dooku senses this and mocks Anakin, resulting in Anakin being so careful over how he's fighting so that he doesn't go dark that he effectively just breaks apart.

However, Palpatine goads Anakin into killing Dooku, thereby allowing Anakin to use the anger he feels without restraint and thereby operate at full power.

This "full power" would be the actual strength of Jedi Anakin, who only grows more powerful during Operation: Knightfall.

So, no. It was not a "boost." Calling it a "boost" means you just haven't read the novel. He was actually hindered and restraining himself.

Invisible hand performance is the most prime you're getting out of jedi Anakin Skywalker.

You mean the Anakin that simply willed Dooku's hands come off, and they came off?

Agreed, but that's far, far beyond Dooku's capacity to deal with.

In Anakin's peak Invisible Hand performance, we begin to see a level of power that echoes that of what Anakin showed on Mortis.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
(Grey - addressed you on last page)

No. Dooku did not not have the physical strength to meet Anakin's attacks, so he had to use an unnaturally large amount of Force reserves simply to fend him off. This depleted Dooku.

There was never an instance where Dooku mustered enough strength to match full-strength Anakin's blows, even despite the Force reserves being called upon.

Hold on there, Bertha.

1.) We just had this discussion on physical force augmentation vs physical biological strength. What tells us that Anakin isn't working just as hard as Dooku in this fight? Nothing suggests that he was just casually working this along. Anakin's augmented strength at his "natural cruising speed RPM" may be more than that of Dooku's, but Dooku was able to increase his "RPMs" to a higher range to take his strength. Sure Dooku would "run out of fuel" faster at that higher RPM range while Anakin keeps at idle, but he's not completely helpless like Cin Drallig who got his defenses completely hacked through and arm chopped off.

2.) Makashi's philosophy says not to block an opponent's attack head-on, but rather to deflect and redirect. Dooku's saber bending down with Anakin's blows is a stylistic attribute. So of course there wouldn't be him matching Anakin blow for blow.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

They were stalemating in Dark Disciple, were they not? Anakin only grows vastly in power from then and Revenge of the Sith thanks to the Outer Rim Sieges.

Dark Disciple was less than a year before RotS. There is nothing to indicate that he became faster than Dooku by RotS.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Or, just going off the Revenge of the Sith novel, the book constantly has Anakin "appearing out of no-where," "staying right on top of him," being "all over him," and other strong words to emphasize Anakin's speed in the confrontation.

Of course. Anakin is comparable to Dooku in speed, but not faster. Nothing indicates that speed was what gave Anakin the edge.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Of course, the distinction in speed is not as pronounced as strength, but that's because Anakin is a strength-based fighter, but I'd say it's logical to deduce Anakin at least has an edge in speed, no?

Nope.

(Expanding upon my last post).

Kurk, read this post. I think Sasukedc goes into detail explaining it: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=646351&pagenumber=3#post16344144

So in the end, Dooku didn't instantly die to Anakin, right? So he should be able to handle Malgus, right? Unless we have Malgus on the level of RotS Anakin, there's no reason for Dooku to lose a majority.

Originally posted by Kurk

Hold on there, Bertha.

1.) We just had this discussion on physical force augmentation vs physical biological strength. What tells us that Anakin isn't working just as hard as Dooku in this fight? Nothing suggests that he was just casually working this along. Anakin's augmented strength at his "natural cruising speed RPM" may be more than that of Dooku's, but Dooku was able to increase his "RPMs" to a higher range to take his strength. Sure Dooku would "run out of fuel" faster at that higher RPM range while Anakin keeps at idle, but he's not completely helpless like Cin Drallig who got his defenses completely hacked through and arm chopped off. [/B]

Because it's stated Anakin was holding back but steadily growing stronger.

[b]2.) Makashi's philosophy says not to block an opponent's attack head-on, but rather to deflect and redirect. Dooku's saber bending down with Anakin's blows is a stylistic attribute. So of course there wouldn't be him matching Anakin blow for blow.

Is that why him and Yoda or Mace Grievous clashed head-on? 😬

I'm not familiar with the details of all the forms, but given Dooku changed to that premise only after his standard means of approach wasn't working, that's clearly not a stylistic attribute.

Further, the fact this change did nothing either shows Dooku's total helplessness in the situation.

[b]Dark Disciple was less than a year before RotS. There is nothing to indicate that he became faster than Dooku by RotS.

Considering he grew vastly in power since then, and that said power increases speed, I'd say there is.

[b]Nothing indicates that speed was what gave Anakin the edge.

The edge? No.

One of many edges? I'd say so.

I would hardly call having barely come off a sudden combined attack after being lulled by two holding back opponents which were already tiring him, not to mention Skywalker was already there grounded while Dooku had just come off a desperate leap. Hardly fair conditions.

Kbro, you have no basis to make any claims about "logical inference."

And, no, there's nothing even suggesting that Dooku was tired after the "play."

If Dooku gets tired over something he found laughably easy, we have bigger problems with Dooku...

>And, no, there's nothing even suggesting that Dooku was tired after the "play."

Read the novel DA

"However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man"

KEK. I'll actually concede on that specific word choice. I had the PDF of the book open, but given I was also doing Macoeconomics in the mix, it appears I got distracted and missed that.

Nonetheless, I retain my original point, or, if I reword, "nothing suggesting that Dooku was tired in any meaningful way," especially considering Anakin and Obi-Wan were doing far more energy-taxing acrobatics and whatnot and the text doesn't mention that down-the-line either. This idea that Dooku being tired is the source of all his issues is just absurd. Even if we look at the way the text describes his tiring, it doesn't convey any deathly exhaustion that now Anakin's capable of having an edge on him - or anything other than that he shouldn't just be wasting energy needlessly, which is true for almost any character in any situation.

And then, again, refer to the fact Dooku did replenish himself and still was forced to an immediate retreat, therefore demonstrating that the tiring had next-to-no impact.

For the record, if all responses can be halted until tomorrow afternoon, that would be greatly appreciated. 😉

I'm never going to get this HW / studying done at this rate, rofl.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For the record, if all responses can be halted until tomorrow afternoon, that would be greatly appreciated. 😉

I'm never going to get this HW / studying done at this rate, rofl.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Kbro, you have no basis to make any claims about "logical inference."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
And, no, there's nothing even suggesting that Dooku was tired after the "play."

Again, logical inference.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If Dooku gets tired over something he found laughably easy, we have bigger problems with Dooku... [/B]

Off course you can argue none of this matters, since newer canon has written the whole, "Anakin and Kenobi were toying with Dooku!" thing out of continuity.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
For the record, if all responses can be halted until tomorrow afternoon, that would be greatly appreciated. 😉

I'm never going to get this HW / studying done at this rate, rofl.

Useful tip: generally arguments spread and evolve if various debates are taking place at the same time, so it's useful to read everything being said if you want to join into the conversation. Everything you just said has been exchanged between Grey and I already, including my rebuttal to it directly above your post.

Light saber skill: Dooku 9/10
Force abilities: Dooku 7/10
Physical abilities: Malgus Stomp
Tactical abilities: Dooku Stomp

Overall, I would say Dooku wins this 8/10 times

Originally posted by darthblitz76
Light saber skill: Dooku 9/10
Force abilities: Dooku 7/10
Physical abilities: Malgus Stomp
Tactical abilities: Dooku Stomp

Overall, I would say Dooku wins this 8/10 times